Is there a *real* service manual for XR series, and what are they selling on the web?

[mred2]

I know that on the Deere construction side, anyone can purchase the program "Service Advisor" from Deere. Have it installed on their laptop and contact to the equipment, read codes and fix a most problems. However, they can not down load the updates for the ECU or other controllers on the tractors. This gets into the EPA and changing the settings on the engine. It does allow them the complete service manuals for their equipment. I agree with the rights for people to see everything and do most of their repair. But I think some of this will be decided by the EPA.

 

[strantor]

I haven't followed it recently but there was a big fight going on called 'Right to Repair'.

Seems John Deere felt that even though you may have paid 200 - 300 hundred thousand dollars for your tractor/combine, whatever, that when it broke, the only people that were allowed to work on it was John Deere.

So, you're out in the field, your expensive, shiny new John Deere takes a dump and the stealer is like, "I'll get there when I can."

And there is no way on God's Earth you can break through their codes. It just ain't gonna happen. Not unless you've got a Cray Super-Computer.

Generic Motors is partnering in that concept. Figures.

They feel like they own the technology even though you may have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for the tractor, Deere feels like they can withhold the technology required to get into it and repair it.

Only they can. And they can charge you whatever they want. And fix it when they're in the mood.

And the last I checked, it was holding up in the Court system. Hacks in black.

My buddy has to pay thousands of dollars each year in order keep his Snap On Zeus updated with all the codes, etc, required to worked on all the cars today.

I guess access to actual Repair manuals and downloads is a little tougher today than it was back in the day when we could run out an buy a Chilton's or a Motor's Manual.

Like I said, I haven't followed it in a year or so. Maybe it's changed.

I'm gonna run right out and buy something green and yellow.

Count on it.

Reminds me of what I found in my tissue this morning anyway


ETA:
Worth reading

John Deere Just Cost Farmers Their Right to Repair | WIRED

You're right about everything you said; your info maybe a little outdated*, but still pretty much true.

JD is very "IN YOUR FACE" about it. They do it right out in front of everyone, all according to the laws that I'm sure they drafted and paid to be passed. You can't legally view the code in JD's computers that are installed on your tractor. However, JD has a big enough customer base and they've been at this nonsense for longer than anyone, so there are enough nerds who have had enough time with vested interest in hacking the JD tractors. If you're willing to break JD's law, the utilities are out there to do it.

LS is not taking the same approach as far as I can tell. They appear to be banking on several layers of obscurity. Their tractors are relatively obscure to begin with. Ask your nearest nerd if they've heard of LS. Ask your nearest farmer, too. Anybody? Chirp..Chirp... On top of that, they use a programming interface that only exists in Korea and nobody sells it. They use in-house software that nobody seems to even know the name of. I doubt my dealer even has the right stuff to talk to my tractor and if I asked around off the books I'd probably just get blank stares. There are no hacked versions of their software floating around on the dark web that I know of. No LS programming laptops for sale on eBay. Even the folks on the Russian & Chinese ECU hacking forums know nothing about LS.

AFAIK LS is not using JD's legal loopholes because they don't need to (yet) and if you can find a way to hack an LS tractor, you're well within your rights to do so. Someone please let me know if I'm wrong about that, because as soon as my warranty is up or a sufficient amount of Right to Repair legislation passes that I can hack it without voiding the warranty, that's what I plan to try. I already got a bunch of ECU hacking hardware and I'm going to teach myself on a couple of worthless cars that I have before I try to touch the tractor.


* There was recent progress on the Right To Repair front.
Right to Repair: More Than Broken Phones - Brown Political Review

A recent small victory for the movement came with a decision by the Library of Congress to approve exemptions to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which had previously made it illegal to bypass copyright-protection code. These exemptions cover tractors, cars, and specific personal digital devices, allowing consumers or independent repair shops to circumvent copyright protection for the express purpose of making repairs. However, these exemptions are only the first of many steps required to ensure the right to repair.

EDIT: Note that, while the exemptions state you have the right to hack your tractor; there's nothing anywhere stating that the MFG is compelled to give you the tools to do so. Their proprietary programming tools are still theirs. Just because you're allowed to get into brains doesn't mean you'll have a scalpel to do it; you'll probably have to make your own scalpel.

 

[Username Taken]

You're right about everything you said; your info maybe a little outdated*, but still pretty much true.

JD is very "IN YOUR FACE" about it. They do it right out in front of everyone, all according to the laws that I'm sure they drafted and paid to be passed. You can't legally view the code in JD's computers that are installed on your tractor. However, JD has a big enough customer base and they've been at this nonsense for longer than anyone, so there are enough nerds who have had enough time with vested interest in hacking the JD tractors. If you're willing to break JD's law, the utilities are out there to do it.

LS is not taking the same approach as far as I can tell. They appear to be banking on several layers of obscurity. Their tractors are relatively obscure to begin with. Ask your nearest nerd if they've heard of LS. Ask your nearest farmer, too. Anybody? Chirp..Chirp... On top of that, they use a programming interface that only exists in Korea and nobody sells it. They use in-house software that nobody seems to even know the name of. I doubt my dealer even has the right stuff to talk to my tractor and if I asked around off the books I'd probably just get blank stares. There are no hacked versions of their software floating around on the dark web that I know of. No LS programming laptops for sale on eBay. Even the folks on the Russian & Chinese ECU hacking forums know nothing about LS.

AFAIK LS is not using JD's legal loopholes because they don't need to (yet) and if you can find a way to hack an LS tractor, you're well within your rights to do so. Someone please let me know if I'm wrong about that, because as soon as my warranty is up or a sufficient amount of Right to Repair legislation passes that I can hack it without voiding the warranty, that's what I plan to try. I already got a bunch of ECU hacking hardware and I'm going to teach myself on a couple of worthless cars that I have before I try to touch the tractor.


* There was recent progress on the Right To Repair front.
Right to Repair: More Than Broken Phones - Brown Political Review


EDIT: Note that, while the exemptions state you have the right to hack your tractor; there's nothing anywhere stating that the MFG is compelled to give you the tools to do so. Their proprietary programming tools are still theirs. Just because you're allowed to get into brains doesn't mean you'll have a scalpel to do it; you'll probably have to make your own scalpel.

The copyright laws that Deere is using to thwart owners was designed to prevent theft of technology.

Deere has turned it around and used it to thwart its customer base. When socialists (who I despise) speak of 'evil corporatists' this is what they mean.

Many Deere owners have turned to pirated software to crack their codes. This isn't a case of an unauthorized person, as in the case of a stolen smartphone, trying to bust through a code, it's the rightful owner being locked out of equipment he's paid good money for. In Deere's case, almost always more than it's worth. Deere leads the market not because they're 'that' good but because their competition is that bad. And because they're big and rich enough to push people around.

Worth reading: Desperate John Deere tractor owners are downloading illegal Ukrainian firmware hacks to get the crops in / Boing Boing

 

[mred2]

So what you want to do is to be able to go into the ECU and change the programming. Turn the fuel up, bypass emissions, etc.
But is that not against the law? Will not the EPA come after you on this? We have people come in every week that needs a new ECU. We pull it off the self, with their engine serial number, we update the ECU and sell it to them. We charge nothing for programming the ECU. We are not allowed by the EPA to program a ECU that does not match your serial number. Not Deere, the EPA. I know that people want to control all that they purchased. Deere and other companies spend millions of dollars writing this software. You are allowed to purchase the service programs and use them to repair your tractors. But when it comes to the software on the tractor. I can tell you some of what we go thru.
If you change out a monitor(display) on some of the newer units, it goes thru it's own setup to update the hours on the tractor. This is due to people replacing the hour meters on the old tractors making the tractor look less used. Once it goes thru this, the new monitor will not work on any other tractor. You can not move it to another machine. If you want to purchase an older engine, you must turn the old engine in for a core. You can not put an older engine into a newer machine. This is per the EPA. Most of the older engines are drilled and sold as scrape. I don't know of any tractor company that is putting all of these emissions on their equipment because they want to. Most would still sell one without all of the stuff and sell it cheaper.
I do believe that people will hack the code on these units. It is not that hard. The hard part is knowing what to change without destroying your tractor. I have seem many engines with the fuel turned up, blow up. And most tech companies are in it for the money. They will not do it without seeing the green. And the question will be, who the EPA will come after for changing the emissions?

 

[mred2]

As I said before, we sell the John Deere EDL and Service Visor to companies with Deere equipment all of the time. The EDL is about $1500 our cost. Most people with only one or two machines can not afford it. And the ones that do can go to online classes to learn to use the tools.
I had rather spend time working with my tractor than working on it.

 

[Username Taken]

Last time I sat on anything green, it gave me a rash

 

[Doofy]

Last time I sat on anything green, it gave me a rash

Was it moldy?

 

[mred2]

I own a blue tractor. Being an Alabama fan, I have a problem with anything orange. Good tractor, I just don't like the color. The reason I didn't go Deere was the quick attach on the FEL and the cost of backhoe attachment. After all they don't make tractors below 50hp. Like most today, they are built in another country by someone else. And Deere construction equipment is yellow.

 

[Username Taken]

This is a Tractor forum so naturally, John Deere is the target of my wrath when it comes to us, the end-use consumer, being locked out of the right to repair, modify and/or break our stuff if we so desire. They were even remotely locking out owners from starting their tractors until they signed a new EULA after the copyright office ruled against them!

My Harley? Can't work on it. Well, you couldn't when I first got it. They use a 'speed-density' computer (out of necessity) that won't automatically adjust the amount of fuel fed to the engine if you change the cam, put a mild tune on it, or even change change the air cleaner back plate. Changing the heads? Putting in bigger valves? Trying to make it able to keep up with a 400cc rice-burner........ (1584cc getting dusted by a 450cc Kawa??)

Some enterprising people got it together and have learned to 'trick' the HD computer these days, however.

Apple was, and still is, a HUGE abuser of its own customers. You can read up on it all over the internet.

When I first got it, the only thing you could do was have the Dealer 'flash' the computer. They acted like they were dong you this tremendous favor and I think they've stopped doing it. Claimed it was the EPA. Bull snot. They stopped doing because their dealers were complaining about losing service department money. I got so disgusted with HD, I'm giving up biking and selling it. They can rot in India AFAIC.

And take Generic Motors with them.

There are hundreds of other examples.

This is worth reading:

Op-Ed: Farmers lose 'right to repair' their John Deere equipment

But John Deere and other farm equipment manufacturers have created tractors whose engines wouldn't recognize a new part until they paid a tech a few hundred dollars to drive out in a day or two and key an unlock code into the tractor's keyboard.

According to Extreme Tech in March 2017, "Whenever maintenance is needed, an authorized agent needs to come by to connect the tractor to some diagnostic software. They okay the repair and the tractor then works." It can be one or two days before a technician gets by, then there's a service call charge that runs several hundred dollars plus around $150 an hour to pay.

But John Deere and other farm equipment manufacturers have created tractors whose engines wouldn't recognize a new part until they paid a tech a few hundred dollars to drive out in a day or two and key an unlock code into the tractor's keyboard.

According to Extreme Tech in March 2017, "Whenever maintenance is needed, an authorized agent needs to come by to connect the tractor to some diagnostic software. They okay the repair and the tractor then works." It can be one or two days before a technician gets by, then there's a service call charge that runs several hundred dollars plus around $150 an hour to pay.

 

[strantor]

The copyright laws that Deere is using to thwart owners was designed to prevent theft of technology.

Deere has turned it around and used it to thwart its customer base. When socialists (who I despise) speak of 'evil corporatists' this is what they mean.

Many Deere owners have turned to pirated software to crack their codes. This isn't a case of an unauthorized person, as in the case of a stolen smartphone, trying to bust through a code, it's the rightful owner being locked out of equipment he's paid good money for. In Deere's case, almost always more than it's worth. Deere leads the market not because they're 'that' good but because their competition is that bad. And because they're big and rich enough to push people around.

Worth reading: Desperate John Deere tractor owners are downloading illegal Ukrainian firmware hacks to get the crops in / Boing Boing

So what you want to do is to be able to go into the ECU and change the programming. Turn the fuel up, bypass emissions, etc.
But is that not against the law? Will not the EPA come after you on this? We have people come in every week that needs a new ECU. We pull it off the self, with their engine serial number, we update the ECU and sell it to them. We charge nothing for programming the ECU. We are not allowed by the EPA to program a ECU that does not match your serial number. Not Deere, the EPA. I know that people want to control all that they purchased. Deere and other companies spend millions of dollars writing this software. You are allowed to purchase the service programs and use them to repair your tractors. But when it comes to the software on the tractor. I can tell you some of what we go thru.
If you change out a monitor(display) on some of the newer units, it goes thru it's own setup to update the hours on the tractor. This is due to people replacing the hour meters on the old tractors making the tractor look less used. Once it goes thru this, the new monitor will not work on any other tractor. You can not move it to another machine. If you want to purchase an older engine, you must turn the old engine in for a core. You can not put an older engine into a newer machine. This is per the EPA. Most of the older engines are drilled and sold as scrape. I don't know of any tractor company that is putting all of these emissions on their equipment because they want to. Most would still sell one without all of the stuff and sell it cheaper.
I do believe that people will hack the code on these units. It is not that hard. The hard part is knowing what to change without destroying your tractor. I have seem many engines with the fuel turned up, blow up. And most tech companies are in it for the money. They will not do it without seeing the green. And the question will be, who the EPA will come after for changing the emissions?

I'm about to reply to both the quoted messages as if they were posted by the same person. Sorry, I know that's lazy but I hope you can both ascertain which words are meant to address which quote.

I am not a socialist; I don't subscribe to the idea of an evil corporate elite and I don't aim to intentionally take money out of the pockets of an honest company that tries to offer an honest product. Nor am I an anarchist who wishes to thumb my nose at the government and side-step every law that I can, just because. I (mostly) believe in emissions controls and I don't want to roll coal on my tractor. I merely believe in the sovereignty of ownership, and what I paid for, I get to do with as I wish (within the confines of the law). I respect John Deere's Intellectual Property and I would not intentionally and knowingly download pirated versions of their expensive programming software. I recognize the investment that they made, and I would not steal that from them. However, if I were to purchase a John Deere tractor (I wouldn't), I would not respect John Deere's claim of continued ownership over the software contents of MY tractor. I would have no moral or ethical qualms about hacking the tractor. Just as I have none in regards to hacking my own LS tractor. The only reason I haven't hacked my own, is lack of experience and confidence.

A quick aside... I own a Flir E4 thermal camera. I bought the camera with the express intent to hack it. Flir sell the "E" line of cameras with a range of resolutions from 80x60 pixels (E4, $949) to 320x240 pixels (E8, $2,999). All the cameras in that product line are exactly the same. Same hardware, different firmware. My E4 camera has the same 320x240 pixel sensor as the E8, and I hacked the camera to remove the sofware handicap which limited it to 80x60 pixels. I now have an equivalent E8 camera and I only paid 1/3 the price for it. I (somewhat) understand and respect Flir's business strategy; they want to offer a range of cameras with varying functionality appealing to different markets; this allows them to make more sales. They want to have a "cheap" camera that someone like me would buy, as well as a more expensive, more functional version that a bigger company might invest in. But, having multiple production lines running concurrently, pumping out physically different cameras, apparently costs more than what they're doing. So they just standardize on one set of physical components and sell it with varying degrees of self-imposed limitations. Wacky, but it seems to work for them. I respect their decision on how they choose to do business, but once I've paid them $949 for a camera and taken possession of it, it's mine, and I'll do whatever I want with it, up to and including removing their self defeating code.

LS is doing the same thing. My 40HP tractor is physically exactly the same as the 45HP, 50HP and the 55HP tractor. Same engine, same emissions system, physically the same in every way except the programming in the ECU. I've bought the tractor and it's mine. I'll unlock that extra 15HP if I so please (so long as it's not illegal in DMCA terms, of which I'm not 100% certain of yet). If LS can get 55HP out of this engine without exceeding EPA emissions limits, then so can I. I don't want to kill the planet or my engine. I just want to get the best possible return on my investment. Nothing personal against LS, I respect their decision on how they run their business, but now that I've made the purchase, the decision about what to do with it is mine.