I've found where the heroes have gone

Chuck52 · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

Gerard,

I don't disagree with a lot of your comments. I remember the Vietnam era protestors who cursed the common soldiers along with the government. Those were fools; not all of the protestors against that "war" were of that ilk. As to not being able to pick and choose which war you will participate in, I will agree that military personnel who have voluntarilly entered the service don't have that option, which is one reason I'm glad my son is finishing his service in seven days. However, I believe the authority of the President to commit our military to action is, or should be, severely limited in the absence of a war declared by Congress. It's not that I trust Congress all that much, but if we are going to send our young off to die ALL our foolish old men should have to commit themselves to a declaration of war, so in that sense, through our elected representatives, we do get to choose our wars. And the draft should only be used for a legally declared war.

Chuck

patrickg · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

(Skip to bottom for short version)

RANT FOLLOWS:

I have been priveleged to have as close personal friends four WW II vets, three Navy and one Army Air Corps. One died last year, one a few years prior to that. This leaves just two who are still alive, active, and thankfully remain active and vital so far, but nothing lasts forever. My wife and I have made it abundantly clear to them that they are our heroes. All three of the Navy guys had at least one ship sunk out from under him and one of them had that experience 3 times, twice in one day. I was a War baby on the leading edge of the boomers and would have likely been a whole lot more fluent in German than 14 semester hours in college if they and many others hadn't done their duty and more.

I am something of a student history, maybe a 5-6 on a scale of ten with a national average running 2-3. I volunteered for service in the Viet Nam "era", 4 yrs and out. I am not a super patriot or anything like it but have deep respect and fair understanding of who we are as a nation, how we got here, and where it seems we are headed.

I deeply respect Harv's right to feel the way he does and express his opinion while having a significant difference of opinion with what I think he has said. A flag, any flag is just a piece of inanimate cloth, no sole, no supernatural power BUT our flag is the accepted and recognized symbol of this nation, its people, our history, our origin, and the sacrifices made to get us from the tyrany of King George to where we are today. Any act of disrespect to that symbol is equivalent and inseperable to disrespecting this nation, its people, our history, our origin, and the sacrifices made to get us from the tyrany of King George to where we are today. I'm not going to comment on the legality or correctness of the legality of burning a flag but it should be obvious what I think of the morals of anyone who participates or condones or excuses it! An American burning an American flag is far lower morally than the mindless idiots who spat upon returning Viet Nam vets. There is a hugh difference between something being legal and being good or appropriate. Freedom of speach is a powerful thing but should we essentially praise people spewing profanity in the ears of all passers by in a public place. How is this really different from going on about how burning our flag honors those who sacrificed to generate a society where such disrespect is not a capitol crime.

Many folks like to do things to "GOOF" on people, extract maximum shock value. It is an oft repeated scenario. Nudity (see the American Tribal Love Rock Musical, AKA "HAIR", "OH CALCUTTA" etc. Flag burning, draft card burning, bra burning, cross burning... mostly the same basic roots of motivation. There are those who revel in this shock thing, sort of a HEY I'M ME I'M different from all the other thousand of boobs wearing spiked hair and low rise jeans exposing my navel and a couple pubic hairs. I'm different and to prove it I will wear the official uniform of the day decreed by the HQ of Individualism Over Sanity.

There is a giantic difference between what isn't illegal and what is moral, dignified, and appropriate. Lets all eat as many beans as we can hold and recreate THAT scene from "Blazing Saddles" in a confined but public space where folks may have congregated to honor some heroes with a candlelight vigil, prayer service, wake, or other sober and dignified and potentially emotional affair. Yeah, that would certainly honor those who died to preserve the freedom to show such bad taste.

(Reader's Digest version

I think I am a reasonabe and reasonably tollerant guy but really do take exception to Harv's remarks while recognizing his right to express his thoughts however innapropriate.

Patrick

john4nh · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

BTI yah we are definitely on the same page. I fly a flag everyday in my yard. In 1990 I joined the Army, we hadnt started Dessert storm yet. But I wanted to fight for our country the way my dads dad did my dad did and most of my 6 uncles did and for the uncle that Iam named after that didnt make it through vietnam. Unfortunately or maybe fornuately for me I busted up my knee being a dumb kid and received a medical discharge. I sometimes wonder if I could of stayed the course how things would of turned out.

Sorry for rambling but a little self-history.

Redman59 · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

I had just got off the boat from Beirut and Grenada, and while visiting my parents in NJ was invited to spend some time at Princeton University(a notoriously liberal institution even back in 1984). I was visiting with a professor and his family who were friends of my parents. One of his students was slated to be commissioned as a 2d Lt USMC at graduation. I ended up going out with this guy and some of hs buddies. Long story short, I ended up running into some real liberals that night including one girl from Iowa. I had the misconception at that time( I was only about 23) that anyone from farm country had to be a card carrying memeber of the NRA and the Republican Party. She started spouting off all the baby killing stuff that she had been taught at Princeton. She expected me to lose my temper and prove to her that I was some sort of barbarian. When I calmly told her that my troops and I had just spent the last few months with the very real possibility of not coming home so that she could have her opinions and tell me about them, she shut up real quick as did the rest of the room. I then told her not to believe everything she is taught and reads in her textbooks. It was an eye opening evening for me.

Personally, my blood does start to boil at the mere thought of someone burning our flag. I would support a law against it. I think people should be able to make whatever point that they are trying to make without violence or showing disrespect to our country, constitution and founders. I guess I may be a little old fashioned in this respect. Must be the upbringing my Mom and Dad gave me. Dad was a Navy veteran of WWII and lost a ship out in the Med.

Please don't forget to pray for our troops who are in harms way tonight.

Semper Fi,
Redman

Kodiak · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

In regards to the burning of icon like objects.

I have a personal challenge for the Ku Klux Klan. I dare you to burn a cross on Saddams front yard.

Our men and women in uniform are ready willing and prepareing to go over there and fight for your freedom (again). Are you?

wroughtn_harv · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

Evening Russ,

When I say I'm conflicted with the acceptance of these men as personal heroes while they verbalize some of the things that rise my ire I do mean conflicted.

One of the things I've had to accept is they are what they are. They are heroes. They are racists. I can't deny them heroe status because they've proven that beyond any shadow of any doubt by any rationale. They are also racists.

So the conflict is I can't say that just because a person is a racist that they are evil and ignorant and obviously a coward. On the other hand I can't use the term hero and expect to categorize that person as a saint by definition.

Labor Day weekend I'll honor them for being heroes. I'll also choke on my own spit when the N word is thrown around like a common damnm. I'm sure I'll make an apologetic comment about their obvious lack of propriety and hopefully mutual respect will keep tempers below a simmer.

Of course for me this has been a force fed growing experience. I've always been able to slip on a label on those who are obviously mentally and definately morally challenged and leave them be. But now I've had to face the reality that racist old men are just like me but without the benefits of my upbringing and natural good looks.

It hurts a bit to chew on crow, the toughest bird of pray btw. But I do feel it is a necessary part of the diet if one expects to grow as a human being. We do need to learn to accept that someone can be something we detest and yet represent that which we know is the best of us.

I have a hard time with racism. And I'm not just talking about the racism expressed by others. I'm also taking into consideration my own racism. There is a running dialogue between I and me under some circumstances. I wanting to do this or that and me questioning if the motivation is racism or just as bad, because I doesn't want to be a racist.

Kodiak · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

Evening Harv.:

Very profound statements there.

As is throughout history labels have been thrusts upon those who made it their destiny, either by ignorance or brillance, to be seen at the forefront of all controversy. And although most controversy remains the same, each new generation seems to bring with their own labels.

It was just the other day that I heard via the televised media that Racist and Racial Profiling was losing acceptance, and being replaced by a new label of Hatist. Seems to me that that all those other labels, used throughout history in referrence to those same opinions, were born from the original idealism of hate. Does that mean that civilization has have come full circle. And as a circle there is no end to such phylosiphy. It does make me sad.

I would be honored to stand up and salute those that have, as well as those that are willing to unselfishly protect my rights. But I would be even honored even more if all of mankind could stand together.

This memeorial day as you stand there stairing at the flag I hope you see my face up there. As I will being seeing yours and all the other true patriots up there in it.

wroughtn_harv · Aug 22, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

I deeply respect Harv's right to feel the way he does and express his opinion while having a significant difference of opinion with what I think he has said.

Ahhhh, the American Way, I gotta love it. And let me affirm that I feel the same about your opinion.

A flag, any flag is just a piece of inanimate cloth, no sole, no supernatural power BUT our flag is the accepted and recognized symbol of this nation, its people, our history, our origin, and the sacrifices made to get us from the tyrany of King George to where we are today. Any act of disrespect to that symbol is equivalent and inseperable to disrespecting this nation, its people, our history, our origin, and the sacrifices made to get us from the tyrany of King George to where we are today.

Let me offer you a scenario. I want of offer the perspective that maybe, just maybe, what has made us so great as a nation has been our ability to evolve and grow. Of course we have to give due credit to the forefathers for being so wise and so forward thinking as to design and implement such a constitution that it could be the Constitution.

Our evolving from a nation where men of property were the primary citizens to one where all are citizens has only come about with dissent. So we can logically point out that our protesters are really what America is all about.

Someone decides to burn the flag to show their committment to their cause. What I see or hear louder than their words about their cause is their acceptance that our flag is the highest icon they can use. The very fact that they've chosen the flag to desecrate screams louder than their action their acceptance of it's power and prestige.

Now I might be a naive and silly sort. But for me they've lost their war before their first battle. By them choosing my Flag for engaging me they've accepted it's place in my heart and mind.

I also see their burning the flag as the confirmation that our veterans fought for liberty. The very fact that they can do such a despicable act proves that our veteran's sacrifices were not in vain. We do have liberty.

Another thing I see with dissent is that it's America one oh one in action. When they protest they are doing what has made us great. I see that as American democracy in action. I feel that being much more American than those amongst us who don't vote or could care less about politics. The dissenters are at least involved.

I'm not going to comment on the legality or correctness of the legality of burning a flag but it should be obvious what I think of the morals of anyone who participates or condones or excuses it! An American burning an American flag is far lower morally than the mindless idiots who spat upon returning Viet Nam vets.

I'm a Nam vet. I came home twice from Nam. Once in 67 and then again in 69. I wore my uniform when I flew, standby military discount. I'm not a shy type.

No one ever spit on me! I have never talked to a Nam vet who actually had someone spit on him or her! I think that spitting on Nam vets is one of them urban legend thingys.

I'm sure there were soldiers spit on. But I strongly suspicion that it had a lot more to do with crowd control and interaction than it did the ribbons on their chest.

Now there was that time in the men's room at the bus depot in Los Angeles. I was in uniform at the urinal doing the final shake out. Two marines came in fresh out of boot camp evidently. They made some remarks about Army guys. I turned around. They saw the ribbons and it got real quiet. I suspect they wanted real bad to eat some words freshly spoken. I didn't have to say a word and it was all fine.

There is a hugh difference between something being legal and being good or appropriate. Freedom of speach is a powerful thing but should we essentially praise people spewing profanity in the ears of all passers by in a public place. How is this really different from going on about how burning our flag honors those who sacrificed to generate a society where such disrespect is not a capitol crime.

I think the answer to your quandry has a lot more to do with the understanding that profanity is personal and generally nonpolitical. Burning the flag is excerising one's right to do so. No matter how much poor taste that person obviously has.

You might also keep in mind we were one nation during WWII. There has to be some irony in the fact that those heroes raised kids who'd raise kids who'd burn the flag and others wouldn't even register to vote.

You have to wonder just where the finger pointing starts and stops.

patrickg · Aug 23, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

Hi Harv, I guess I want to rethink the "gulf" separating us. It looks much smaller now. Thanks for your post, I am pleased to be able to see that we are not nearly as polarized as I mistakenly thought before. Mind you, I'm not saying the entire post is perfectly congruent with my thoughts but with the exception of a couple minor splinters if fits pretty smoothly.

Small nits but sometimes they can be important..
You said, "When they protest they are doing what has made us great."

Maybe, maybe not. Not all protests are well founded, have a legitimate cause, or are for the good of the nation. It does not follow that because dissent helped start a wonderful thing (USA) that all dissent is good. Some dissent is closer to a child throwing a tantrum and is nothing on which to base pride.

I don't disagree with you when you say the acts of protest prove its working. I also don't feel real good when murderers and rapists get off on technicalities although they are clearly guilty. It proves our system of jurisprudence is working but isn't what I would call a shining example and point of pride, but rather a burden we carry in order to have justice most of the time.

And you said, "So we can logically point out that our protesters are really what America is all about."

I don't see how that logically follows. America is about a heck of a lot more than just protesting.

You say, "The dissenters are at least involved." Yes but protesting and involvement in and of itself is not a good thing. What and how you protest is what is important. What you are involved in is what is important. Satanic cults are involved, anti-Darwinism and burn-the-books fundamentalists stealthily invading school boards and disrupting the teaching of REAL science is involvement. Neo Nazis are real involved.

Just having everyone turn out on a designated Thursday and desecrate the flag wouldn't be a day of civic pride because we all exercised our freedom and showed how wonderful our system is. Most folks like babies. Babies poop real messy smelly poop but we try to get past that for their other qualities. When folks are showing pride in their kids it isn't because of the quantities of smelly poop that were involved it was for the good that went beyond that. Things that we must tollerate from some small groups (ill founded protests and protest methods like burning our flag) are not points of pride but a sore spot that must be tolerated beause to stop those idiots we would deprive those with legitimate causes and methods of their freedom.

We've recently seen examples of real involvement and the destruction by burning of American icons by certain Islamic fundamentalists last September the eleventh. A bit beyond the average protest? Where do you draw the line with civil disobedience by involved protesters? They REALY believed in their cause and offered their lives in their protest, how noble.

OK, I'm back. Anyway Harv, we all use language a bit imprecisely at times and it is difficult to say much without someone having some way to misunderstand. I certainly agree with you about LEGAL protests. They exercise our rights and can be good bad or indifferent. We have freedom. Part of the price of freedom is tolerance. At times a heavy price. Is it just personal preference and taste? I condone protests whose cause I do not condone when they are done legitimately with out geting into civil dispobedience. I am a big time detractor of illegal protests and as you might have guessed I get real incensed when someone tries to desecrate our great nation by burning a symbol that is irrevocably wed to it and all who have gone before to make it so.

Patrick

Chuck52 · Aug 23, 2002

Re: I\'ve found where the heroes have gone

Well now Russ, there's the rub. If we invade Iraq, are we fighting for our freedom? Were we fighting for our freedom in Vietnam? I am not a pacifist. I realise some wars have been necessary, at least in the sense that when we became engaged in them there was no other reasonable course. When we forced Iraq to get out of Kuwait, our national interest really was involved.....we require middle eastern oil, and though we had dealt with ****** before, we couldn't be sure he would treat us well in the future. Are we going to invade Iraq this time because there is a real threat that he will try to use "weapons of mass destruction" against us? If we're worried about terrorists, why don't we invade Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, the various Palestinian territories, etc. Bush may be correct in his apparent assessment of the threat Iraq poses to this country. If he is, let him present the case to Congress so that body can perform one of it's key functions, declaration of a state of war.

None of this minimizes the value of the contribution of our military men and women. Whether they have served in the War to end all Wars, WWII, Korea, or some of the less popular conflicts, they were serving their country. The military pays the price of political mistakes. We are responsible for watching the politicians.

Chuck