JD vs Kubota...HELP!

[Anonymous Poster]

I found this site accidentally, and love it. My basic question is the John Deere versus Kubota question...I hope it is a safe question in Kubota land.

My husband and I own about 62 acres, half fields, half woods. We own an Arien 12HP sit down for yard mowing, which is far undersized for my needs. I mow around trees along a 900'+ driveway, and lots more lawn beyond that. We also own a old 52 Farmall which we tend to use mostly for cleaning the edges of our hay fields (sickle bar). A local farmer does the haying once per year. He does the work, he takes the hay. No pay. No charge.

I recently tried mowing with a JD 355 18 HP diesel with grass catcher (I use a lot of mulch in my gardening and around trees). There is nothing about this 355 that I do not like. It has plenty of power and is extremely user friendly. I decided that I want one!

In my tractor search and education (that just goes on and on), my husband and I thought that if we went into a larger tractor, we could sell our two old ones, and combine usage in a single tractor.

I drove the JD 790 and it purred. I loved it, but I hated the shift business on the floor. Only good for lots of forward work. I drove the 4100 and it felt clunky or clanky...not impressed. A bigger tractor in size than the 355D, but close to the same HP.

Then I tried the 4400. This one, not at the dealership, so I could see how the unit worked with a MMM. It had turf tires on it, and I was impressed with how well it turned and such. Close edging with the 72" MMM, etc. Don't like the grandoise bagger...the one that empties with hydrolics....don't even WANT to know how much that costs.
I was not impressed with the hydro forward and back. On the 355, it was very comfortable. On the 4400, the pedals were harder to press, and it just felt like it would bother my back over time. The pedals are also too far out to the right.

My sister owns the JD 4700. Too much tractor for me, but the ride helped me try out the power reverser feature. I liked that better than the hydro. Could easily do the sync reverser as I have the feeling that I should be using the clutch anyway. Psychological...

I also drove (yet another) tractor. This one, a Kubota. Belongs to friends of ours out of state. They had a bush hog mower on the back with a 3PH. I mowed a small field just to get the feel of things. I do not remember the model, but it was around a mid 20HP. This one was hydro, and seemed fairly user friendly. I didn't like the (don't know the real name of this) lever on the column to increase the engine speed. It was very hard to move. Would have been nice to try driving this AFTER all the JD's, but it didn't happen.

So....most of my experience has been with JD. My needs are: MMM anywhere from the 54" to the 60". I know they have a 72", but that might be getting too big. I also want a grass catcher, a post hole digger, a bush hog and a snow blower. The mower would get the most use, then the bush hog, and then the snow blower...and so on. (I'm not looking at the ever popular FEL because we have an old, old FEL backhoe for what little we need it for. It runs.

I am sitting on several prices because I have not settled on a size, and because there are two dealerships in reasonable distance from me. Both have been very helpful.

In 2000 words or less....here is my dilemma. I like the JD in terms of user friendly, because I have tried several of them. I still need to rule out what I want and don't want in a tractor. That aside, "from what I hear" they are very good and dependable tractors. Top of the line I hear.

Then I also hear that Kubota is a very good tractor, but for less money. Of course, if we are willing to buy a new tractor and spend this kind of money, we should be getting a good tractor no matter how you slice it. New is typically like that, isn't it?

Personally, I care a lot about the user friendly aspect. I spend a lot of hours every week on a too small tractor, and have reached the point of wanting something more powerful, so much that I am driving my poor husband crazy. He is very in favor of me getting a tractor, and is very aware of getting a tad bit more tractor, because you always hear how people buy 'what they need' and then wish they had gone slightly bigger.

So...is JD comparable to Kubota in quality? Is JD much more expensive than Kubota as I hear (I have not been to the Kubota dealership yet, but have begun looking at info. on the internet...getting familiar with comprable tractors, etc.)?

As I rule out what I do not want in a tractor, I am settling in on wanting a 4200 in the JD, and just looking at the info. on Kubota, it looks like the B2710.

This is such a big decision because I know I will be using this tractor for so much work...summer and winter (we live in Maine). I look forward to hearing from any of you folks who have been around tractors longer than I have! I apologize for my inability to ask my questions without 20 paragraphs of extras, but it is all part of the 'shopping' process. I do not want to be one of those folks who spend thousands on something, and then wish I'd made a more educated purchase at a later date. Hope my questions are safe in this Kubot zone!

 

[glennmac]

Joyce,

A lengthy question deserves a lengthy answer.

There is no "right" answer. First, you have to decide on the proper size and power for your needs. If it is going to be primarily a lawnmower, light brush hogger and snow mover--and not a lifter and dirt engager--then I think the JD 4200 is a good size for you. I would suggest that the Kubota 2710 and 2910 are the comparable machines. On the New Holland side, if you have a dealer, look at the TC25 and TC29.

All of the "Big Three" make high quality products, and any of these machines will do your jobs in a comparable manner. I would suggest the following purchasing priorities:

1. Which machine just feels the best to you. Which is the most comfy and friendly. (You're going to be having a lot of close contact with it.) Which one do you just like, even if you cant articlulate why.

2. The dealer. Is he knowledgeable. Does he answer your questions. Is he easy to get along with. Seem honest and straightforward. Do you get the feeling he is honestly trying to help solve your tractoring needs, or just trying to sell you something. How clean and complete does his service area look. Ask how experienced his service people are. You will be having a long term relationship with your dealer.

3. Price. You can get the list prices for JD products in the configurator on their website. You can get Kubota list prices at tractorsmart.com. If you can get 15% of list from either, I think that is a very good deal in the Northeast. You cant compare absolute dollars to dollars. JD has somewhat of a reputation of being higher priced, but most of that is because they try to trade on their historical brand name and not offer as big a discounts as some Kubota dealers.

4. Comparative specifications. They are all very close and all the tractors can do the job.

I would strongly recommend hydro on any of these tractors. It is much easier for backing and turning when mowing or snow plowing. All brands of hydro have the rpm lever on the dash. It can be loosened up.

I would also strongly recommend a 72" deck over a 60" deck if you have several acres to mow. (Forget 54"; that's toy garden tractor stuff.) Your mowing will go faster, you will be able to cut closer circles around trees and bushes, and you will be able to reach further under bushes or hedges.

I will now get slightly more partisan, but I am still trying to accurately reflect my experience. I own a Kubota 2910 with a 72" belly mower. In my opinion, the Kubota hydro is smoother and easier to operate than the hyro on the JD4200-4400. The required pedal pressure is noticeably less, and the reverse pedal is a rear movement with the heel rather than a further reach to the right. The hydro engages smoother than the JD, which tends to kick in with more of a "catch". The Kubota also stops smoother. The JD stops with more of a "lurch". Remember, I'm only discussing hydro here. This may seem like a small difference, but poor pedal comfort adds up hour by hour like Chinese water torture. (That should rev up the Green crowd here.)

As a matter of historical record, the hydro has been a source of complaint with the JD 4000 series, and JD came out with a "fix" last year to make the pedals easier to press and to make the reverse pedal slightly higher than the forward pedal so it is supposedly a little easier to reach. They also chaged the metal the pedals are made of. My impressions reported above, however, are all post-fix. Try it yourself. Compare them.

I would also say that the reliability of Kubota's B series is unsurpassed among all compact tractors. Again as a matter of historical record, Deere had very significant problems with the front axles of the 4000 series tearing uo lawns. Deere essentially recalled the axles last year and replaced them. Their new axle seems to have solved the problem. Ask your Deere dealer about the pedal and axle fixes and see if he gives you the straight scoop. There is also currenly a rumor that Deere is coming out with a replacement upgrade to the 4000 series next year.

I also believe there is a significant difference in the lever control placements and labelings on the 27/2910 compared to the JD 4200. This is somewhat subjective, but it is again a repetitive use thing. See if you can tell, visually or by feel, what hydro "range" you are in on the JD versus the three ranges and 2 neutrals on the Kubota. See which one you have to "hunt" for more with by feel to get into the proper range. Compare on which of the two you can most easily move the 3ph lever and tell what height the hitch is at with respect to the numbered scale.

I dont know how often you will be taking off the belly deck. If you do it often, I can say with some confidence that the Kubota 72" deck comes on and off easier than the Deere 72" deck and easier than the Kubota 60" deck.

As between the Kubota 2710 and 2910, I think the price difference is worth it. You can focus on that if you like Kubota.

Most important, I think, is my priority number 1 above.

Good luck.

 

[Bird]

Joyce, I wouldn't want to start another green vs. orange battle, but I agree with glennmac. I have a B2710, and much prefer it to the John Deere or New Holland, but they're all good tractors. Like glennmac said, buy the one you're most comfortable driving and from the dealer you have the most confidence in.

Bird

 

[bher]

If there is a dealer in your area, I would suggest that you take a look at New Holland. In my search for a tractor, I have just about settled on a NH TC 33D. In my area, it was the best tractor for the money. The NH tractors had the most quiet smooth engine and best controls/ergonomics. Just a thought.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Glenmac,

Your lengthy answer is MUCH appreciated. It is clear to me at this point, that I need to get out and ride some Kubota tractors, as my only reference point is the one try on a model size that I do not remember. I will have to pass on to our friends the fact about the tight RMP (?) lever being adjustable.

Just based on HP alone, I had looked at and printed info. off of the internet about the Kubota 2710 and 2910. Excellant point on the idea of a 72" MMM sticking out a bit more to get closer under trees or hedges. I knew that I needed to get beyond the spread of the tires, but hadn't thought that it would get me closer, etc. Thanks!

With regard to taking the mower deck often...I am not sure how often. With my Ariens (AKA...Alien), I take it off more than I would like to. Perhaps because it is such a small mower, and I mow lots of grass, it tends to have clog up areas underneath. More so when I want to collect clippings. Most times, I just get down on the ground, reach under with an old long screwdriver, and pry the mess off. If I want to sharpen blades, the deck comes off, just because I don't have a system (yet) to run it up on something, giving me enough space to take the blades off, without removing the whole deck. But when I do take it off, I always use the opportunity to do a thorough scrape down underneath. Personally, I'd like to do less of that chore in the future.

I don't know if I would have to take a mower deck off if I wanted to use the bush hog. On my mom's 355, her deck can be lifted hydrolically with a lever, to get it 'out of the way' to a limited degree, but certainly more effective than my Alien. Does the Kubota have this lifting feature with the MMM also?

By the way, my Alien mower deck is an easy deal to take off, but putting it back on in an act in frustration. Primarily because several pieces need to line up just right. You said that the 72" Kubota deck is easier to remove than the 54 and 60"? Does that mean that it goes back together fairly well too? I know that JD has wheels right on the mower deck that can either pivot or be turned (I forget which), so that when you release the mower deck, you can roll it out from under the tractor.

As another point of comparison, mom's 355 has a blower unit just outside the chute of the mower deck, getting the clippings out of the way and into the bagger...her's is a two bag unit. I didn't see anything on the internet last check about miscellaneous features such as this, but I will check this out with a local dealer.

After I had posted my letter, I was looking at other inquires in another of the Kubota sites (probably wrong terminology, but I'm new at this...). I had been reading enough of the questions and exchanges, that I have begun to recognize names of folks who write and respond. You guys are great by the way. I was reading one coversation about comparing the power of the hydrostatic drives versus two others...sliding gear, and I don't recall the other. It didn't take me long to realize that you guys were talking about much bigger tractors than I need (not want) to be driving at this point. But it made me wonder if this power question is an issue at all. It is likely a moot point, as is looks as though the size range in Kubota that I would be looking at only comes in the hydro.

I did not know that the technology of the JD had been changing regarding the ease of the hydro foot pedal. I'll make sure to have that among my questions the next time I go to the dealership. I was aware, however, about the concern of the front tires ripping up turf with the old axle business, only because the guy who let me drive his 4400 bought it with the old axle. He happened to be talking with his dealer, and made a bit of a complaint about the ripping turf. They took the tractor back, and without charging, put the new axle on. He clearly has a 'relationship' with his dealer.

Regarding your comment on price. I had found a web site on JD, where I could plug in the tractor with tools and toys that I wanted, and it gave me a suggested retail value. Pardon my total ignorance on this subject, but is what I got considered the 'list' price that you refer to? And when you mention getting the 15% of list, do you mean that I take the list price and add 15%, and that should be a fair price? (I told you I was ignorant in this regard...). This sounds like those books that you can get when purchasing a new car, that tells you exactly what a dealer pays for the new car that they buy. It is up to you to decide how much seems fair, that the dealer needs to mark the vehicles up, in consideration of overhead and profit, etc. Is this the same idea or am I misunderstanding what you said?

Your comments about the position of levers and such, is such a good point. I will figure this out by driving them at the dealership...I don't know anyone else who has one in the area for me to try. Things like lever position fall into the category of 'user friendly' to me, and if a person is going to spend big bucks on a machine, and spend lots of hours on it, it NEEDS to be easy and comfortable.

Thanks again for all of the information. I've read it aloud to my husband. He appreciates the 'homework' that I'm doing on this tractor purchase, as I just have a bit more time to do it. He too knows people who buy one tractor, then realize that they really needed something slightly different. He also realizes that I will be running this more than he will, and how I feel about it matters. He just wants us to get the best value for our money. He also cautions me about taking up too much time from the kind folks 'out there' willing to help us with all of my endless questions. With that, I will close.

Joyce

 

[JATO_RaT]

Joyce, I must admit I skimmed through your question and then response rather quickly. I felt it important though to get you as informed about a couple of critical options. You may have found the hydrostatic a little awkward at first, but give it a chance. It is short of a couple of reasons, the only way to go. 1. safest especially for beginniners, but even for experienced folks, 2. super quick and mobile. 3. easiest on the drive train, tires and even for that matter the turf since you cannot "pop" the clutch.
The power reverser as JD calls it. Kubota called theirs the "shuttle shift" (thats what most companies call it) is great, and beats the floor mounted or column mounted gear selector especially for getting into reverse. AS well as this works, I'm still advising the hydrostatic drive. I don't own a hydrostatic drive, but my next tractor will have it.

Of the 3 manufactuers, I like the Kubotas engines and hydro units best. I like the ergonomics and some of the design in the New Hollands and John Deeres I like the color, the name and the engines are pretty good as well. JD does a nice job laying out the hydraulics as well. I would be happy with any of them, I don't believe you would make a mistake choosing any brand, just some models. Good Luck, babys crying so its my turn to feed him, Rat...

 

[GlueGuy]

Joyce,

Everthing that everyone has said so far is right on. I also believe that all the "big 3" are good choices, with a lot of the differences boiling down to some subjective criteria.

One thing that no one has mentioned is Muhamad's book. If you've not downloaded it yet, it may be a good bet for you at the point that you're at. Compared to the purchase price of a tractor, it is cheap enough to help you make sure that you've asked all the right questions.

The GlueGuy

 

[glennmac]

Joyce,

I don't know anything about baggers and blowers so I wont comment. I guess the fact that I dont own one is a comment, however, that I consider them unnecessary.

All of the decks on these tractors are large and heavy. So taking them on and off is not a joy. Off is easier than on with all of them. Count the number of attachment points on the deck and look at what kind of attachment pins they are--easy to remove or hard to remove. The more attachment points, the more lining up and the more time involved. Also look at the wheels; do they all rotate or just the front ones. What I like about the Kubota 72" deck is that it is the only one on the Kubota or JD line that has 4 rotating guage wheels at each corner. That makes it easier to slide around on the ground. It also has only 3 attachment points (not counting the pto shaft, which is common to all decks and which is the biggest pain in the neck of all). On the Kubota 72" deck, you would drive over it to get it off and on instead of having to slide it to the side.

All decks raise up and down hydraulically. They all can be mechanically pinned up while you use a brush hog on the back. But you will have greatly reduced clearance underneath if you leave the belly deck on, so you may want to take it off for clearance reasons.

You of course can choose a 3ph mount mower for any of these tractors instead of a belly mower. That would make installing easier at the cost of some maneuverability. They are also less expensive than belly mowers.

The list price is the maximum you would pay. There are no sources available on what the dealers costs are, as there are for cars. It's just a matter of how much of a discount you can get off list. (The dealer should tell you what the list price is on each component.) How much of a discount you can get depends on lots of things: demand in your area, how many dealers competing against each other in your area, how much stock a dealer has available, time of year, how persistent and skilled you are as a negotiator. If you live in an area where these factors are against you, you probably cannot get as much as 15% off the list price. Kubota dealers here in CT will give 12% with not too much work, and JD will give 11% fairly easily. People are reporting 20% discounts in the midwest where a lot of dealers compete against each other.

You can buy Kubota heavily discounted on the internet from tractorsmart.com and from carver.com, who advertises here. The shipping to Maine will be substantial, however.You can get an idea on discounts on Deere from jdlawns.com.

You can clean belly mowers and remove blades by driving the front of the tractor up on some auto ramps. Rear mowers are easier to clean because you can just lift them up with the hitch.

You should seriously think about the belly mower vs. rear mower issue. It has been extensively discussed here. Bird recently gave an excellent summary in a recent thread that he will probably give you a link to.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Glue Guy,

I was looking at that book, and got distracted with the site with all of the discussion. Thanks for the reminder, and I will follow through.

Joyce

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Glennmac,

Thanks for the last tips. The clipping collections are a personal favorite, and I use them a lot. More in the spring when the grass is growing so fast, because I don't want the clippings all over, and in the fall when I am looking for extra mulches for garden covers, and around trees. Helps protect things through our long cold winters. Mulches in gardens help build soil, as well as keep weeds down, and the time I save NOT weeding is well worth the extra efforts in collections.

All that aside...I am on my way to the Kubota dealer with my husband and six year old boy. Who do you think will give me the most help in our trio!!

I really appreciate all of the insights you have shared.

Joyce