SevenCorners
Silver Member
I did the same mods as you. Except I wired it directly into my Ford starter that way they come on and off using the starter.
Tractors4u
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Are you saying that when you have the key in the start position (starter spinning) that your glow plugs are on? If so this is an inefficient method. You are turning your engine over before the glow plugs have warmed up enough to start the engine.
greg_g
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Are you saying that when you have the key in the start position (starter spinning) that your glow plugs are on? If so this is an inefficient method. You are turning your engine over before the glow plugs have warmed up enough to start the engine. )</font>
You came in halfway through the movie Brent. The OE Jinma switch has spring loaded HEAT position, and a spring loaded START position. In HEAT, voltage is delivered to the glow plugs. In START, it is not. The glow plugs cool down very fast, and often don't stay warm enough long enough to be of any benefit while the starter is cranking a cold engine.
Upgrading to that particular Ford switch eliminates this shortcoming. It sends voltage to the glow plugs in both the HEAT and the START positions. That means the glow plugs continue to produce supplemental heat while the starter is cranking a cold engine.
//greg//
You came in halfway through the movie Brent. The OE Jinma switch has spring loaded HEAT position, and a spring loaded START position. In HEAT, voltage is delivered to the glow plugs. In START, it is not. The glow plugs cool down very fast, and often don't stay warm enough long enough to be of any benefit while the starter is cranking a cold engine.
Upgrading to that particular Ford switch eliminates this shortcoming. It sends voltage to the glow plugs in both the HEAT and the START positions. That means the glow plugs continue to produce supplemental heat while the starter is cranking a cold engine.
//greg//
Tractors4u
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Ahhhh, that makes some sense to me. But, typically the glow plug is to warm the air in the combustion chamber so even if the glow cools off rapidly you have warmed the air enough for diesel ignition right?
F100Panel
Silver Member
I'm not too sure I'd want to keep the glow plugs energized while engaging the starter... If on a real cold start one has already run the glows the maximum recommended time & then hit the starter for say 15 seconds, one has added another 15 seconds to the glows and one would have REALLY overheated the glows...True glows are relatively cheap but overheating them & dropping a melted tip into a cylinder would not be good to say the least. nor cheap... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
greg_g
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Ahhhh, that makes some sense to me. But, typically the glow plug is to warm the air in the combustion chamber so even if the glow cools off rapidly you have warmed the air enough for diesel ignition right? )</font>
Apparently Ford didn't think so. This is the same switch they've been putting in their diesel tractors since the 50s. These little Jinma engines are cold blooded buggers anyway. So as far as I'm concerned, if it's good enough for Ford, it's good enough for Jinma.
//greg//
Apparently Ford didn't think so. This is the same switch they've been putting in their diesel tractors since the 50s. These little Jinma engines are cold blooded buggers anyway. So as far as I'm concerned, if it's good enough for Ford, it's good enough for Jinma.
//greg//
greg_g
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If on a real cold start one has already run the glows the maximum recommended time & then hit the starter for say 15 seconds, one has added another 15 seconds to the glows and one would have REALLY overheated the glows.)</font>
You kinda missed the point of the Ford Switch upgrade. When you throw away the (self-destructing) Jinma switch, the previous cold start procedure goes with it.
Glow plug operation by the way, is not even addressed in MY translated) Jinma manual. So this 15 second rule cannot actually be attributed to the manufacturer. But their manual does specify that continuous cranking time should be limited to 10 seconds, to prevent overheating the starter motor. And it clearly specifies use of the decompression lever. From there - factor in a law of physics that stipulates resistance varies with temperature, and you must conclude that "glow time" can not (effectively) be a constant.
But for the sake of argument, let's use your number anyway.
Your way:
1. HEAT 15 seconds
2. instant cooldown
3. START 15 seconds
4. overheat starter
5. Repeat as necessary.
My way:
1. HEAT for as long as long as the ambient temp dictates,
2. decompress cylinders,
3. HEAT+START for up to 10 seconds.
4. Once you get a feel for the HEAT duration, the "repeat" part isn't usually necessary. When used in conjunction with the decompression lever, the Ford Switch upgrade should actually reduce wear and tear on the starting system.
In the end, this has become little more than an academic discussion - since JAROBAN has concluded his was a grounding problem. Everyone is entitled to start their tractor in the manner they prefer. Some will simply start theirs faster than others.
//greg//
You kinda missed the point of the Ford Switch upgrade. When you throw away the (self-destructing) Jinma switch, the previous cold start procedure goes with it.
Glow plug operation by the way, is not even addressed in MY translated) Jinma manual. So this 15 second rule cannot actually be attributed to the manufacturer. But their manual does specify that continuous cranking time should be limited to 10 seconds, to prevent overheating the starter motor. And it clearly specifies use of the decompression lever. From there - factor in a law of physics that stipulates resistance varies with temperature, and you must conclude that "glow time" can not (effectively) be a constant.
But for the sake of argument, let's use your number anyway.
Your way:
1. HEAT 15 seconds
2. instant cooldown
3. START 15 seconds
4. overheat starter
5. Repeat as necessary.
My way:
1. HEAT for as long as long as the ambient temp dictates,
2. decompress cylinders,
3. HEAT+START for up to 10 seconds.
4. Once you get a feel for the HEAT duration, the "repeat" part isn't usually necessary. When used in conjunction with the decompression lever, the Ford Switch upgrade should actually reduce wear and tear on the starting system.
In the end, this has become little more than an academic discussion - since JAROBAN has concluded his was a grounding problem. Everyone is entitled to start their tractor in the manner they prefer. Some will simply start theirs faster than others.
//greg//
F100Panel
Silver Member
For the sake of argument..... Maximum recommeded glow time-30 seconds/in the manual.. Keep'em engaged as you go to start adds whatever starter time durration to the already maxed glows & it's a recepie for overheated glows. I don't believe there are too many reading this Chinese board that if the engine is almost running at 15 seconds they let go of the start switch & I agree 20 seconds is pushing it but I may be wrong but I believe it's commonly done. PERSONALLY if it's the first turn of the starter & I'm almost running at 15 seconds I'll let her churn a few extra till she catches especially if it's almost running & the load on the starter has decreased due to she's almost running... Been doing that on my diesel Ford F350 for years now & I'm still on the original starter....
While on the subject for sake of argument... I REALLY disagree with using the your recommendation of using the decompression lever every time you start the tractor cold or hot... It's a given, maximum engine wear occurs at start... Stops as oil pressure comes in. Cylinder wall lubrication? That comes from oil splash out of the bearing journals ( mostly rod..) up into the cylinder walls... I can't believe any starter could spin the crank that fast to throw oil that high... With your formula ( I think you mentioned in one of your responses to an IDEA I had that to start the tractor, hold the decompression lever & pull the fuel stop ) you'd need 3 hands, 1 to hold the key on start, 2nd for the decompression & a 3rd for holding out the fuel kill knob. Why do I reference the fuel kill rod? Given cylinder wall lube comes from lube oil in crankcase, dumping unburned diesel into the cylinder on every start using the decompression rod will actually wash lube off the cylinder walls & put diesel/albeit in small quatities into the lube oil & those small quantities will add up.
These forums were concieved to be a board for help & ideas. If one don't agree with one then maybe one shouldn't use the idea rather than get into the sake of for argument type posts. Little usefull comes from it... Were I to do that I'd be as prolific a poster as you... Example- I have a file of the ENTIRE Gates hose line complete with 3D drawings & measurements I've offered to send to people. You post of 12/18/04 for example when a member ( Grumpa) referenced it you enlightened him you saw it & it was only for Jinmas.. When I read these boards it's with an open mind knowing there likely are better ideas out there than mine to consider. Maybe I'll inquire further for more information on the subject if the idea really interests me or if I totally disagree I figure to each his own & move on.. To the credit of nearly everone who reads this board & others, very few/one has critized anything I've posted/put me on the defensive. I'm not the only one . The same thought line has been mentioned by others on this board & others... Putting out an idea for consideration & being explicit in saying it's a personal choice ( which I've taken to saying in my posts so as not to go down this road ) should'nt have to be defended... If this gets me locked out of future postings oh well.. I can still read the posts for information & ideas & it'll save me defending my take on different subjects...
While on the subject for sake of argument... I REALLY disagree with using the your recommendation of using the decompression lever every time you start the tractor cold or hot... It's a given, maximum engine wear occurs at start... Stops as oil pressure comes in. Cylinder wall lubrication? That comes from oil splash out of the bearing journals ( mostly rod..) up into the cylinder walls... I can't believe any starter could spin the crank that fast to throw oil that high... With your formula ( I think you mentioned in one of your responses to an IDEA I had that to start the tractor, hold the decompression lever & pull the fuel stop ) you'd need 3 hands, 1 to hold the key on start, 2nd for the decompression & a 3rd for holding out the fuel kill knob. Why do I reference the fuel kill rod? Given cylinder wall lube comes from lube oil in crankcase, dumping unburned diesel into the cylinder on every start using the decompression rod will actually wash lube off the cylinder walls & put diesel/albeit in small quatities into the lube oil & those small quantities will add up.
These forums were concieved to be a board for help & ideas. If one don't agree with one then maybe one shouldn't use the idea rather than get into the sake of for argument type posts. Little usefull comes from it... Were I to do that I'd be as prolific a poster as you... Example- I have a file of the ENTIRE Gates hose line complete with 3D drawings & measurements I've offered to send to people. You post of 12/18/04 for example when a member ( Grumpa) referenced it you enlightened him you saw it & it was only for Jinmas.. When I read these boards it's with an open mind knowing there likely are better ideas out there than mine to consider. Maybe I'll inquire further for more information on the subject if the idea really interests me or if I totally disagree I figure to each his own & move on.. To the credit of nearly everone who reads this board & others, very few/one has critized anything I've posted/put me on the defensive. I'm not the only one . The same thought line has been mentioned by others on this board & others... Putting out an idea for consideration & being explicit in saying it's a personal choice ( which I've taken to saying in my posts so as not to go down this road ) should'nt have to be defended... If this gets me locked out of future postings oh well.. I can still read the posts for information & ideas & it'll save me defending my take on different subjects...
greg_g
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Yup. We report, they decide.
But I'm not sure why your feathers are so ruffled here. I made a suggestion to JAROBAN, you said my premise was wrong. I defended my premise, you get your skivvies twisted. What's wrong with this picture?
Seems pretty clear that you also missed the point of " <font color="blue">Everyone is entitled to start their tractor in the manner they prefer. Some will simply start theirs faster than others. </font> "
Lighten up, you'll live longer.
//greg//
But I'm not sure why your feathers are so ruffled here. I made a suggestion to JAROBAN, you said my premise was wrong. I defended my premise, you get your skivvies twisted. What's wrong with this picture?
Seems pretty clear that you also missed the point of " <font color="blue">Everyone is entitled to start their tractor in the manner they prefer. Some will simply start theirs faster than others. </font> "
Lighten up, you'll live longer.
//greg//
Harrygoodwrench
Gold Member
I never use my decompression mechansim to start. Personally I think the decompression mechansim does nothing but create premature engine wear. There is no way you are going to throw sufficient oil on cylinder walls at starter speed even with decompression lever releasing compression. Plus your bearings are not getting proper lubrication as they should.
It is a well known fact that the majority of engine wear occurs during start-up. So why would you want to increase that wear time by cranking engine longer using the decompression mechanism?????
The only near perfect system is a pre-lubrication system that some big engines use. But for practical purposes keeping engine in proper running condition and keeping cranking to a minimum will minimize this wear.
Most (and I said most, not all) newer engines don't even use decompression levers anymore.
I energize the glow plugs thru the relay modification for a MAX of 20 seconds depending on temperature (20 seconds for 30 degrees and lower) lesser for higher temps. I have NEVER had to crank for 15 seconds. If it don't start within 5 to 8 seconds cranking I stop, wait a minute and do the routine all over. Rarely it has not started on first try, only once at 11 degrees did I have to do it twice.
If I plug in the block heater for a couple of hours, regardless of temp I only need about 5 seconds glow and she lights right off. I've started with plugged in at 3 below zero as easy as 45 degrees, its me that didn't move right at that temp.
In summary, start the way you want, but if you have to crank that long you are causing premature wear to engine and starter. Google and google all you want but facts are facts are facts.
Thats my opine and I stick by it.
It is a well known fact that the majority of engine wear occurs during start-up. So why would you want to increase that wear time by cranking engine longer using the decompression mechanism?????
The only near perfect system is a pre-lubrication system that some big engines use. But for practical purposes keeping engine in proper running condition and keeping cranking to a minimum will minimize this wear.
Most (and I said most, not all) newer engines don't even use decompression levers anymore.
I energize the glow plugs thru the relay modification for a MAX of 20 seconds depending on temperature (20 seconds for 30 degrees and lower) lesser for higher temps. I have NEVER had to crank for 15 seconds. If it don't start within 5 to 8 seconds cranking I stop, wait a minute and do the routine all over. Rarely it has not started on first try, only once at 11 degrees did I have to do it twice.
If I plug in the block heater for a couple of hours, regardless of temp I only need about 5 seconds glow and she lights right off. I've started with plugged in at 3 below zero as easy as 45 degrees, its me that didn't move right at that temp.
In summary, start the way you want, but if you have to crank that long you are causing premature wear to engine and starter. Google and google all you want but facts are facts are facts.
Thats my opine and I stick by it.