JM 335 Duel Clutch major problem

[MikeLonghurst]

I live in France and have had my Shire 335 (35HP re-badged Jinma) for just over 12 months now. After having done 55hrs I was aksed if the farmer next door could borrow it to do some work in his barn and the Jinma was smaller and able to manouver a lot better. Anyway 3 weeks later he returned the tractor and it now had 117hrs on the dial and also a loud sound when the clutch was depressed. Took it down to the local tractor garage and they split the beast. Went down yesterday to see the damage and they said that I need the following replacement parts: 1 x Throw out bearing, 1 x PTO clutch driven plate assy, 3 x sub release levers, 2 x disk springs.

The mechanic said that he thought that the Throw Out Bearing Seat had stuck and that this had caused excessive wear and overheating of the various parts. The ends of the Sub Release Leavers were totaly worn away. As they normaly deal with MF and other major brands, he could not fugure out how the Throw Out Bearing Seat was meant to be lubricated and sated that he considered this to be a major design fault.

Has anyone any ideas how the Throw Out Bearing Seat is lubricated? Also anyone any idea as to why this type of damage would have occured. The farmer next door was mainly using the tractor to run a PTO driven generator (with tractor engin running at max speed).

Any advice appreciated as the repair bill for this looks like comming to about £1,000 and the French Farmer is likely to say that if this is a design fault he should be responsible!!!

Rgds, Mike L

 

[greg_g]

I can't speak for the bearing lube, as my KAMA has a grease point. But the photo of the release levers suggests that that problem was in the clutch linkage adjustment, rather than a lubrication problem. The release fingers are not supposed to contact the throwout bearing when the clutch pedal is fully released. Yours were obviously making (quite excessive) full-time contact. I believe a gap between 0.1mm and 2.0 mm is specified.

This is an adjustment that should be performed by the selling dealer, hence a warranty issue. If you put it together yourself.....

//greg//

 

[bluechip]

I think it was Ben Franklin, who had a high regard for the French by the way, that said "neither a borrower or lender be" but that won't help now I suppose...

When we have seen this type of failure, it has been from failure to maintain 1" of pedal free travel on the clutch. the throw out bearing is not designed to be in constant contact wiht the fingers on the clutch, the bearing will overheat, sieze and burn the tips of the fingers off, just as your photos show. this can also be done by resting your foot on the clutch pedal during operation. The fit between the bearing seat and the support is very loose, I thik it would be hard to get it to seize and if it did, it would seem you would tell by clutch pedal not returning to normal position.

 

[RonMar]

That clutch/throwout design is not much different than that used in many forign automobiles. I know Toyota has used something similar throughout the 80's and the only real difference is the use of a hydraulic slave cylinder to actuate it and more fingers/levers on the pressure plate. They probably still use something similar but I havn't cracked a toyota any newer than an 88.

The Bearing is pressed onto a carrier assembly. This assembly slides on a tube(moved by a fork) through which the transmission input shaft passes. That assembly and tube is greased upon installation, or any time the unit is broken down for clutch or bearing repair/replacement. there is no grease fitting on them for routing maintenance. If greased properly at install, these things should operate fine for a long long time. The toys and nissan/datsuns I have worked on have never had any problems between required clutch disk replacements. Was there grease on the inside of the bearing carrier and the tube it slides upon?

As mentioned, the bearing carrier should fully retract so the fingers/levers on the pressure plate do not touch the bearing. In this case that is accomplished by the return spring on the clutch pedal.

My vote would be either a mis-adjustment, in which case it would have happened to you eventually. Or something inadvertantly set/fell against the pedal taking up the freeplay/gap between fingers and bearing while it was being used as a generator, Or somebody riding the clutch pedal/slipping the clutch, instead of selecting a slower gear...

What did the wear on the clutch disks look like? If they are really burnt up with only a hundred+ hours, that might lead me more in the direction of operator error.

Good neighbors can be hard to find... I would hope that your neighbor would feel bad enough about it breaking while he was using it, even if it wasn't his fault, to at least help out with the repair bill.

Good luck

 

[JINMA224XR]

<font color="blue"> I live in France and have had my Shire 335 (35HP re-badged Jinma) for just over 12 months now. After having done 55hrs I was aksed if the farmer next door could borrow it to do some work in his barn and the Jinma was smaller and able to manouver a lot better. Anyway 3 weeks later he returned the tractor and it now had 117hrs on the dial and also a loud sound when the clutch was depressed. Took it down to the local tractor garage and they split the beast. Went down yesterday to see the damage and they said that I need the following replacement parts: 1 x Throw out bearing, 1 x PTO clutch driven plate assy, 3 x sub release levers, 2 x disk springs.
</font>

Hey Mike,

We all want to be good neighbors, and want to help our neighbors out. My Dad was a farmer, and exchanged equipment with other farmers, when the situation's arose, in order to try hold equipment costs down, etc. The agreement was always, to return the equipment in the same condition. The exception was normal wear and tear.

However, a lot of the times, he got his equipment back and something was broken. And he told me not to do it, as it is a money losing proposition.

Your neighbor should bear the cost of fixing your tractor, period. However, most likely he will balk and make up several excuses, to avoid this, as he was in the beginning trying to save money, by borrowing, someone elses equipment, and this will cost him more money.

Your neighbor assumed the risk, when he borrowed your equipment, and should do the right thing, and pay for the damages.

Unfortunately also, you as the lender also assumed the same risk, in that, if the equipment is broken by the borrower, that they will not be willing to repair the equipment. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

A true "Good Neighbor", would have told you of the damage, assumed the risk, and would have asked you to which repair facility, that you would like for him to take it to for repair.

Now, I could see maybe if Lightning or a Flood had damaged your tractor, but this was damage done while the tractor was in operation.

He used your tractor for 62 hours, so that also has a monetary value as well, that could be figured in more ways than one.

Hope everything works out, and you and your neighbor still remain good neighbors.

Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[billbill1]

The three week part bothers me some, do you think he would have ever brought it back if it hadn't broken? He owes for the repair in my opinion. I only have 140 hours on mine in 14 months.

 

[Affordable]

The throw out bearing is not lubricated it only turns when you depress the clutch, what happens most of the time is the clutch was out of adjustment from day one so the throw out bearing has been turning the whole time the tractor was running.which has caused some heat damage and wore off the release fingers. Do you have a source for the clutch assembly, we have all the parts in stock to replace this, send me a PM and I will get you more information. Also do you have the manuals for the tractor?? we can help you with them also

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales web page

 

[MikeLonghurst]

Hi there and thanks ever so much for the replies, they have been very useful. One thing that occurred to me is that the PTO Clutch pressure plate was badly heat scared (picture attached) and the PTO Clutch driven plate assy needs replacing. I am not a technical or mechanical guy at all (god how I wish I was) but wondered, if the guy linked up a heavy generator (which he did for a few days to power grinders etc) to the PTO and ran this for a number of days. Would this cause the damage to the PTO plates? (i.e could the generator have been to much for a 35HP tractor).

Could anyone advise how long it should take to rebuild the tractor once the French mechanic has the new clutch parts? He has said it should take about 2 days!!! Not sure if this sounds right.

The French Farmer by the way has about 6 big tractors which he uses on his farm. He asked to use mine because it could get into the small places. I was quite surprised when I saw him using it for running the generator but thought nothing of it at the time.

The thing should be able to be resolved amicably as the farmer owns the large cattle building very close to us and we supply all his water and electricity (he owns the adjacent land but actually lives about 20 miles away and we have the only water and electricity supply in the area – he also uses our electricity to power his fencing for all his cattle). If there is a problem with him agreeing to pay for the repairs to the tractor I would simply explain that I had been neighbourly and trusting and as he has abused this trust I will simply switch off the water and electricity supply (all located in our cellar). This is not something that we would want to do but I would be prepared to do if the situation is not resolved amicably. Also this being France, if word got out (and like rural communities all over the world word spreads fast) that he broke our tractor and left us in the lurch, his name would become mud round here and the entire community would turn against him quite quickly. Even though we are Brits in France we are part of a small community of only 185 people here and they really do support their own (even if we do overcook our food!!!).


Tommy. I may be in contact with you shortly. Want to see what the dealer in the UK says first about sending parts out here. Don’t have much faith in this happening because the tractor arrived late and the attachments came out 2 months after the promised delivery date. Also had no manuals or anything with the tractor. The French mechanic at the garage is working from a picture of the Duel Stage clutch that I got from the internet..that is all he has.


Regards, Mike L

 

[MikeLonghurst]

I have attached a picture of the PTO Clutch Driven Plate Assy which the mechanic said needs replacing. The other side is as pitted and marked as this picture. It looks pretty badly marked but not sure what thickness it should be in good condition.

Rgds, Mike L

 

[Affordable]

That looks like a pic of the main disc,not the pto,but it does not matter as it will have to be rebuilt at this point, our assembly will have the new clutch,pressure plate,pto disc.We also have the throw out bearings and a complete set of manuals.Let us know if we can help,shipping cost would be high unless you wanted to wait on the slow boat from China.
Air freight you should get in about 3-4 days

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales

 

[JINMA224XR]

<font color="blue"> If there is a problem with him agreeing to pay for the repairs to the tractor I would simply explain that I had been neighbourly and trusting and as he has abused this trust I will simply switch off the water and electricity supply (all located in our cellar). This is not something that we would want to do but I would be prepared to do if the situation is not resolved amicably. Also had no manuals or anything with the tractor. The French mechanic at the garage is working from a picture of the Duel Stage clutch that I got from the internet..that is all he has.
</font>

Hey Mike,

I would try to remain friends, talk softly, yet firmly. And I would move swiftly to procure the Service and Parts manuals for your Tractor, and Engine, as with my tractor, there were 4 different manuals. 2(operation/Parts) for the Tractor, and 2 (Operation/Parts) for the Engine.

You need to let your mechanic see these manuals, in order to assist him, in doing the very best repair possible, and trying to avoid, doing the repair over again to get it right the 2nd time.

If in doubt about whether to get an extra part or not, GET IT, because it is much better to have too many parts, than not enough when doing a repair project. Especially since the tractor is Split Apart.

You have the situation in hand, and are working from the Higher Ground.

Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( am not a technical or mechanical guy at all (god how I wish I was) but wondered, if the guy linked up a heavy generator (which he did for a few days to power grinders etc) to the PTO and ran this for a number of days. Would this cause the damage to the PTO plates? (i.e could the generator have been to much for a 35HP )</font>

Was the load stalling the tractor? I'd expect that it would have to.. to be too much load. Keep in mind that 24 pto hp should run a 12kw genny .. etc. What size genny was he running? In other words.. I don't think a load at the rated pto hp of the tractor would hurt it.. that's what the tractor is made to do.. etc. .. that is.. unless the clutch was out of adjustment.. etc..

Soundguy

 

[greg_g]

I still believe this is a warranty issue. Evidence presented thus far supports an argument that the selling dealer did NOT properly adjust the clutch and/or linkage and/or bearing clearance before taking your money. As such, your neighbor truly has no responsibility in the matter beyond compensating you for the time used..

I recommend you turn your efforts instead to getting a clutchpack and bearing set from the UK dealer under warranty. Use the warranty replacement to repair, then send your OE clutchpack out for rebuild. Viola - instant shelf spare.

//gerg//

 

[Ranch_Hand_Supp]

MikeLonghurst, The release bearing did seize. The bearing is a sealed bearing... which means no grease fitting.

The Jinma clutch set up..... is designed for the release bearing to only turn when the clutch pedal is depressed.
To grind away the end of the fingers as shown.... there had to be pressure against them. Two things, foot on the clutch pedal making pressure or the clutch out of adjustment. I think clutch adjustment is what set it up for failure. I have seen release bearings go bad and do similar damage whether it be a sealed bearing or one you can lube.

The kind of heat that was generated on your clutch pressure plate etc from it slipping....... I don't think it would make a very good core to have rebuilt.

If the engine flywheel has the same kind of discoloring...... that would need to be machined to see if it will clean up.


Ronald
Ranch Hand Supply

 

[MikeLonghurst]

Just had some good news (at last). The dealer in the UK has said he will dispatch a complete clutch to be sent direct from China. Seems a bit weird as he said he gets the tractors from the US!!!

Next questions is. How long should it take to put the tractor back together again once the mechanic has the parts? He recons on 2 days which seems a long time to me (especially at 40Euros per hour + TVA at 19.6%) /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rgds, Mike L

 

[greg_g]

Well, half the job's already done: tractor broken and old clutchpack out. Assuming the UK dealer is sending the entire clutchpack (to include throwout and pilot bearings), it should take less time to reassemble than it did to disassemble. With the tractor in half, installing the new clutchpack is pretty straightforward. The owner's manual contains the tolerances that should be verified before closing up. Once the tractor halves are reassembled, it's a matter of fine tuning release lever clearances, pedal play, and pedal stop.

You could probably save some labor time if you finished up the wiring and light duty reassembly tasks yourself. Did you get all four manuals with your tractor?

//greg//

 

[Ranch_Hand_Supp]

MikeLonghurst,
Glad to hear you got some parts coming !!!

My guess warranty has something to do with it not coming from the US ?.... seller does not stock part/parts??


Quote: How long should it take to put the tractor back together again once the mechanic has the parts? He recons on 2 days which seems a long time to me (especially at 40Euros per hour + TVA at 19.6%)


Thats a million dollar question..... I have found most of the time it takes longer to reassemble than take apart. There is prep than has to be done first, splines cleaned and lubed, Clutch disc's have to be aligned before you slide the tractor back together, Clutch adjustment etc, etc , etc........

I would think if he is a tractor mechanic .... and as easy as the Jinma is built...... back together in 8 hours or less for sure. He may need 2 days to work it back in between other jobs ??? not truly working on it straight for 2 days???

Here are 3 pictures of the same set up,

http://www.ranchhandsupply.com/pages/35/index.htm

Keep us updated

Ronald
Ranch Hand Supply

 

[Affordable]

For what it's worth, we do clutch replacement jobs in about 6-7 hours which is including splitting the tractor and re-assembling with the new clutch pack,that being said we have done several and know how to pre-adjust the clutch pack,and made our own aligning tool,ect. which helps.It's not a real hard job but can be a pain to re-align. He's prob. saying give him a couple of days to to work load.We have our parts aleady so we don't have to wait to get parts

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales