MikePA
Super Moderator
Everyone who buys products made in China has a good reason for doing so. It's just a bit hypocritical to bemoan the movement of jobs overseas then buy products made there.
Just Plain Wrong !
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Nat
Platinum Member
All thru this thread I keep hearing how the company puts profit before anything else. LMTC said what I think a lot better than I could have. Now while we are on this subject why don't we think about the fact, yes fact not opinion that the US taxes business much higher that anywhere else in the whole wide world. All of one political party wants to tax business and cut taxes on people while the other wants to cut taxes for business and let the people pay the taxes. It at first sounds good to let the business pay the Lions share of the taxes and give tax breaks to the lower income folks doesn't it?
Well guess what happens when you do that, VG moves to china and the jobs VG provided go with them. Now who is going to pay those taxes?
Off my soapbox for now. Later, Nat
Well guess what happens when you do that, VG moves to china and the jobs VG provided go with them. Now who is going to pay those taxes?
Off my soapbox for now. Later, Nat
Shimon
Platinum Member
A lot of their stuff is going down in quality too. And a lot of the stuff is also made overseas now. Not just the Blue Point line but the actual Snap-On stuff. Take a look at the Snap-On crescent wrenches...made in Spain. Not China...but it's coming soon enough.
MBAs and accountants are running most companies now and all they care about, generally speaking, is the bottom line. Which is fine because that's what business is all about...making money. But that approach is short sighted in my opinion. If you are looking to make money over the long haul...there is more to business than the bottom line.
CinderSchnauzer
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OK let's blame the MBA's and Accountants for wanting to make money. Let's blame Management / Workers for quality, or lack thereof.
Do all the consumers, who are not willing to pay the price or accept the quality of a NA made product share any blame? Is someone forcing consumers to flock to Wal-Mart or where ever to buy all this Chinese junk, causing the flow of jobs overseas?
In my view, we as consumers cannot simply blame management or the government for all these lost jobs. As long as we as consumers continue to support foreign entities with our purchase decisions, then NA jobs will continue to be lost.
Shimon
Platinum Member
You are right in saying that consumers are to blame also.
BUT, when companies like Wal-Mart come in and use their clout to force smaller business out of the market and then they jam us full of junk then they too need to shoulder the blame. Big box stores are taking over and pretty soon consumers will be forced to buy junk (and sure it may be "our" fault but I'm not accepting any responsibility...I buy quality and avoid...whenever there is a choice...made in China junk).
When companies like John Deere make cheaper mowers to compete in the under $2000 market they too are part of the problem. Sure they are just giving the consumer what he wants. But at what price? Now the market is flooded with cheaply made mowers that besmirch the John Deere name and we have long time John Deere fans and newer John Deere customers complaining about quality. Sure this is just a generalization but it's also a trend which is becoming a larger and larger problem.
I think most consumers are idiots when it comes to purchasing stuff. They go for price first and that too is part of the problem. Sorry for my crass generalization but that's the way I see it. If it wasn't true, Wal-Mart would not exist. Most people don't care about American jobs going away as long as they get a good deal. Most don't care if their Vice-Grips are made in China. I think we are in small minority in expressing our frustrations regarding this subject.
So we can blame the mob of cheap consumers but I also say blame the companies who would sacrifice their reputations of quality for a fast back. Shame on them. Even if it's what people want. Sometime what people want is not what's best for this country.
And just to set the record straight...I'm not a big fan of democracy (Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government...except for everything else")...I think a benevolent tyranny would be much more efficient (although it is "utopian" in nature, unfortunately) . So go ahead and call me names.
Scooby074
Super Member
I haven't been on the Snapon truck in 3 years or so, (our local guy got out of it) but its disappointing to hear their quality is slipping.
Last tools i bought off the truck was some Mac picks to replace some broken USA made ones. Didn't realize they were made in china until i got in the shop. They were the same price as the ones i bought a couple years earlier. I dont buy Mac anymore, only go on the truck for warranty.
It looks like instead of having a modern day Boston Tea Party we are going to have to go back and reinvent the wheel. If we went to the Boston Tea party there would people left to teach us but those teachers will no longer be there if we allow ourselves to go all the way back to reinvent the wheel.
Shimon
Platinum Member
I'm still in the wrench turning business and the Snap-On guy stops by every Wednesday. Each week is more depressing than the next. I used to think that Snap-On was the last bastion of hope for America...but alas. I guess it's pathetic to put a corporation up on a pedestal but businesses are are symbols of what America can create and thus a source of pride for me.
A couple of weeks ago I bought a pneumatic cut-off tool off the Snap-On truck for $250. You can buy one at Harbor Freight for $9. Or I could have bought a Blue-Point version for $80. Why would an idiot like me spend $250 for an air powered cut off tool when I could have bought 25 cut off tools for $250 which would last me the rest of my life? My Snap-On tool won't last me the rest of my life. The answer is simple...the Snap-On tool was made in the USA and if you felt it and used it you would see that it exudes quality. I have used those Harbor Freight tools and they work ok but and get the job done and would probably serve me well (as they do for a lot of people)...but given the choice I want to buy only USA quality tools. I don't buy USA just for the sake of USA stuff...I buy quality made in the USA stuff. It's getting harder and harder.
I'm looking for an oscillating fan to put over our woodstove to distribute the heat. Found a nice metal Hunter fan (Tennessee, USA company) but the fan is made in China. I'll keep looking.
Walmart cannot FORCE a smaller business out of the market...the CONSUMER does that by not buying the smaller business' product, but rather choosing the less expensive product from some where else. If everyone was going to their local small hardware and buying only US made vise-grips, Walmart would carry US made vise grips and stop carrying the Chinese product. But that doesn't happen....enough CONSUMERS go to Walmart and but the less expensive version and eventually the pricier (even if better quality) product leaves the market. There is enough online marketing opportunity the last ten years that expensive products can be marketed online with minimal overhead....Walmart is not the only selling venue available. Ultimately consumers make the choice, and at the point they are left with what seems to be "no choice" it is primarily because they have ALREADY made their choice, and once that decision is reinforced by long term buying habits to the point where one company folds, that choice becomes somewhat permanent.
MikePA
Super Moderator
Nope. I define 'Whining and Complaining' as people who post or voice complaints, typically with references to 'they', 'them', 'management', 'big business' and other nebulous terms. When they get specific, it's usually about WalMart or other big stores. Like someone is 'forcing' people to shop there. Finally, they proceed to display their complete ignorance about economics and finish up without offering a solution.
I work with someone like this. He never has anything nice to say about anything and acts like he has a permanent 'Kick Me' sign taped to his back. All around, a miserable person to be around.
LMTC nailed the issue. CONSUMERS decide with their dollars.
It's not 'them' who determine this. It's millions of people voting with their dollars. People who think otherwise are one step away from either;
- Believing in paranoid conspiracies.
- Looking to big government to 'solve' their problems.
People would be well served, and be happier, to live by the Serenity Prayer.
Nat
Platinum Member
Another example of wanting our cake and eating it to is the drug problem. For many years law enforcement has gone after the dealer, not the user. If they went after the user then the dealers would have to find another line of work.
But let's not involve the poor user, it's the dealers fault.
ie: let's not involve the poor buyer who has made this problem, let's blame Wal-Mart for selling us the cheap Chinese junk that we buy by the shipping container load everyday.
Don't get me wrong, I also buy at wally world, but I'm not blaming them for selling it.
Later, Nat
But let's not involve the poor user, it's the dealers fault.
ie: let's not involve the poor buyer who has made this problem, let's blame Wal-Mart for selling us the cheap Chinese junk that we buy by the shipping container load everyday.
Don't get me wrong, I also buy at wally world, but I'm not blaming them for selling it.
Later, Nat
Scooby074
Super Member
I vote with my wallet. I buy my tools at local industrial suppliers. I rarely buy WalMart and support the race to the bottom that they create. I can look at my toolbox at home and work and know i supported NA manufacturers wherever possible.
The problem is once a company takes this manufacturing capacity away from NA its gone pretty much forever. Therefore they've taken away my right to choose to not buy Chinese crap. Can anybody suggest a NA sourced locking pliers now that VG has gone? None that I know of.
The problem is once a company takes this manufacturing capacity away from NA its gone pretty much forever. Therefore they've taken away my right to choose to not buy Chinese crap. Can anybody suggest a NA sourced locking pliers now that VG has gone? None that I know of.
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CinderSchnauzer
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Whatever you want to call it, here I am a single consumer amongst a NA population of approx. 400 Million.
For example, I have not been in a Wal-Mart store for years - doesn't seem to make any difference.
I stand on my front porch and see nothing but Toyota's, Honda's, Nissans in my neighbors drive. I have 3 GM products in the dirve - doesn't seem to make any difference. I hear GM is in danger of going bankrupt. They are closing the GM plant is Oshawa where the Crewcab I drive is built.
Notwithstanding I wanted a JD tractor, I thought it would be good to support the NA economy. The BH & MMM are made in USA. The FEL was made in Welland. Doesn't make any difference I see the Welland plant is now slated for closure and they are going to build the FEL's in Mexico.
I needed a dog crate in the last few days. Went to all the local pet supply stores. All availabe crates - made in China.
I would love to propose the solutions you suggest those of us who complain should propose, but quite frankly if I devoted 24/7 for the next 20 years I doubt my efforts would have any effect whatsoever.
Mike, perhpas you could kick start the problem solving / solution dilemma for the rest of by offering a couple of real simple ones. What should we do to solve the GM problem or the JD problem?
MikePA
Super Moderator
It's not enough to simply not buy Chinese made products. You have to let the retailer know why you are not buying their product. If enough people do what you're doing, things will change, but not overnight. People switched from buying GM cars in the 50s and 60s to Japanese cars in the 70s and 80s. Now, Korean cars are on the rise. It happens.
Once you're doing what you can
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
I'm going to frame this and give it my mother who thinks I am always wrong....if I agree with her she changes her position.
- So you do agree with me that it's OK to believe in non-paranoid conspiracies, right? I mean, it's not paranoia if they really ARE out to get you...
kenmac
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I hear people (all the time) complain about this or that store has put the mom & pop out of business.WM., Lowe's , H.D, the large grocery store chains, etc, didn't put anyone out of business. We, the people, looking for the lowest peice put them out of business
riptides
Super Star Member
We heard this same type of comments about Japan a few years back.
America always needs a villan right?
Thank goodness we have the best educational system in the world, and the spirit, savy and determination to be the beacon for those less fortunate.
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