Kioti 2017 NX6010 Hydraulic sys grp failure, 5+ weeks at dealer, no resolution

[PetersenRockFarm]

Update July 28 2020
They disassembled all the linkages and measured / checked for alignment, bends, radius, etc per the Kioti Product Managers. And as the techs, service manager and myself all thought prior to this exercise, this would not be the root cause, it was not. So, the dealer is blindly following directions from a less than competent product manager / service support person(s) at Kioti HQ / Dealer Services.

Now the dealer is being told to reassemble everything, put the entire hydraulic system group back in to the tractor and check to see if a bushing is functioning properly.

I will be back at local dealer tomorrow late morning to see what progress has been made. Tomorrow, July 29, 2020 marks 6 weeks my tractor has been at dealer.

thanks all,
Erik

 

[wdchyd]

Epic failure due to a dealer without competent service technicians with troubleshooting experience IMHO.

Too many dealers think that only the sale is important, hope they find the issue. My experience is usually something incredibly easy to fix or really major (in this case it better not be)

I would be wanting a loaner tractor in the mean time.

 

[PetersenRockFarm]

Epic failure due to a dealer without competent service technicians with troubleshooting experience IMHO.

Too many dealers think that only the sale is important, hope they find the issue. My experience is usually something incredibly easy to fix or really major (in this case it better not be)

I would be wanting a loaner tractor in the mean time.

Good morning,
Yes, I certainly asked for a loaner and was told, "no, cannot do that" just like they won't order full parts list and start swapping out because then they will "carry cost of parts until November and the owner of this dealership refuses to do that".

So, what's a person to do, the Kioti Customer Service person pointed to the dealer to resolve, the dealer here in Conway NH is pointing at Kioti for not guiding them properly. It's incompetence and extremely poor customer service all around.

Kioti: If you are in this group, you are horrific at customer & dealer service. You've apparently set up dealers to sell, not service (oh and this dealer claims to be in Top 25 in country out of ~500?) -- so, buyer beware. Personally I am regretting this purchase immensely. I cannot recommend anyone buying a Kioti unless you can tear one down and build back up from the ground yourself. I can only imagine if I were running a business that relied on this tractor, and the dealer has had it for 6 weeks now.... incredible incompetence in both the dealer and Kioti. Shame on both for not being able to resolve.

I'll be back up at the dealer this morning to see what they accomplished today...

Happy summer y'all
Erik

 

[sd455dan]

thanks Jim - I'll add thermal relief valve to the list when I go there this morning. They must love seeing me show up daily now

* what does "RS" stand for ? thank you!

"Rock Shaft" seal

Probably the most common reason for a jumping or leaking down 3 point

Other than labor to replace a bad seal- it is also generally the least expensive part to fail in hydraulic systems.

If you raise the 3 point and shut the tractor off do the 3 point arms hold position or do they slowly lower?

If they do lower, the 1st thing the dealer should have checked imo is the rockshaft seal(s)

Both my Ford 3000 and my Rhino 554 needed the RS seals replaced during the time I have had them. Neither would hold 3 point position with tractor off and both exhibited the jumping 3 point syndrome when there was an implement attached while running.
The 3 point jumps while running because as the seal leaks fluid-the piston moves (since fluid has leaked out) the implement drops, this causes the position control linkage to correct the 3 point height by opening the pressure circuit to supply oil pressure to the rockshaft cylinder and therefore move the piston (back to its original position) to maintain the 3 points height position.

The factory could have torn or damaged the seal when the tractor was built.
It is a tight fit when the seal lip is compressed to allow it to fit in the cylinder when it is being assembled.

hope this helps.

 

[Leejohn]

sd455dan, ditto to your post. When I posted I was thinking of the piston seal or the o rings between the control valve and the rockshaft housing.

 

[PetersenRockFarm]

"Rock Shaft" seal

Probably the most common reason for a jumping or leaking down 3 point

Other than labor to replace a bad seal- it is also generally the least expensive part to fail in hydraulic systems.

If you raise the 3 point and shut the tractor off do the 3 point arms hold position or do they slowly lower?

If they do lower, the 1st thing the dealer should have checked imo is the rockshaft seal(s)

Both my Ford 3000 and my Rhino 554 needed the RS seals replaced during the time I have had them. Neither would hold 3 point position with tractor off and both exhibited the jumping 3 point syndrome when there was an implement attached while running.
The 3 point jumps while running because as the seal leaks fluid-the piston moves (since fluid has leaked out) the implement drops, this causes the position control linkage to correct the 3 point height by opening the pressure circuit to supply oil pressure to the rockshaft cylinder and therefore move the piston (back to its original position) to maintain the 3 points height position.

The factory could have torn or damaged the seal when the tractor was built.
It is a tight fit when the seal lip is compressed to allow it to fit in the cylinder when it is being assembled.

hope this helps.

Thank you SD455dan,
The 3 pt does hold position when off, it only jumps as you described, when running and implement attached to 3 pt. When I drive around with ballast weight it's fine, no jumping, and when I forget to lower ballast weight once in a while, it's still up in position a couple days later when I get back to using tractor.

It would make total sense to me the seal was damaged when built, only because I've had this issue for 3 years since I put the Woods BB720 on it to mow my field. Being a novice I just thought the implement was out of alignment/position. Newbie still, and only need to mow couple times a year so not a daily issue. But man, it's been killin me not having tractor for 6 weeks (and I just retired so I am free to use it every day now ! arggg lol).

The dealer says the 3 pt went up and down fine (as I knew) when they ran through it 6 weeks ago. They put in the new valve, and then no up and down at all, a second new valve ordered and still no up and down at all. Chasing shadows now...

thanks much guys.
Erik

 

[PetersenRockFarm]

Update July 29 2020 2:46 PM. 6 weeks still at dealer, unknown fix.

Stopped in to dealer on way to town 11:00 am EST. They were told to check the "Clutch Plate Assembly" by Kioti.... I guess that sits on the side of the Hydraulic System Group... they said they were going to reassemble and check that...

2:00 PM EST I stop in again. They "checked the clutch plate assembly" and it is not the cause, still no up and down of 3 point hitch (and that was not original problem, the 'jumping' was original problem, it went up and down when I brought it in). The owner of Dealer said he called Kioti, left a message and sent an email explaining situation. Now the dealer is awaiting "someone new" from Kioti to call the dealer with another approach.

I think I'll go back up there again before they close. **** I'm retired now and have nothing better to do....



Erik

 

[sd455dan]

Thank you SD455dan,
The 3 pt does hold position when off, it only jumps as you described, when running and implement attached to 3 pt. When I drive around with ballast weight it's fine, no jumping, and when I forget to lower ballast weight once in a while, it's still up in position a couple days later when I get back to using tractor.

It would make total sense to me the seal was damaged when built, only because I've had this issue for 3 years since I put the Woods BB720 on it to mow my field. Being a novice I just thought the implement was out of alignment/position. Newbie still, and only need to mow couple times a year so not a daily issue. But man, it's been killin me not having tractor for 6 weeks (and I just retired so I am free to use it every day now ! arggg lol).

The dealer says the 3 pt went up and down fine (as I knew) when they ran through it 6 weeks ago. They put in the new valve, and then no up and down at all, a second new valve ordered and still no up and down at all. Chasing shadows now...

thanks much guys.
Erik

Oh Ok
the 3 point stays up when the machine is off...

Well that does not sound like the main rockshaft piston seal then.

It would normally not hold position if that is damaged or worn out.

Sounds like maybe the linkage was out of adjustment and when they pulled the tractor apart they actually created new problems.

Total loss of movement on some tractors can be as simple as missing an alignment point for the linkage when the top plate is put back on.
I actually did that on the 554 and had to re lift the plate to get the linkage to meet where t was supposed to. Lever did nothing to raise the 3 point. Lots of other reasons that could happen to.

The dealer checking a clutch plate makes me think that clutch may drive the shaft to the hydraulic pump. Some tractors use only 1 or two pumps some like my Selecto speed Ford have 4 different hydraulic pumps.

Different tractors are built to different designs for sure. Maybe a Kioti owner that has a similar machine has seen this before and has some ideas. The fact that the 3 point held position when off pretty much eliminates the main rockshaft seal as the problem I think.

Sorry i sent you down the wrong road on this, Will be watching this thread for a Hopeful resolution with the root cause identified.

 

[PetersenRockFarm]

thanks for the ideas, very much appreciated. Yup, there was mention of a couple alignments / clearances inside the hydraulic system group but so far those have checked out to be within spec. My personal guess is that the 2 replacement MEC Valves are/were both defective or the O rings were damaged somehow trying to put in the new ones...
thank you
Erik

 

[PetersenRockFarm]

Update: July 30 2020
3 Separate visits to Powersports Dealer in Conway NH today (just like yesterday).
At end of day it is all reassembled and the 3 point hitch will not go up or down (again, that did work when it was brought in). They tried putting in the original MEC valve (the one that has been in since factory and had stripped vent/adjustment bolt on top) and even with that back in the 3 point would not go up/down. They also adjusted the 'arm' (not sure of correct term here) which puts pressure to open or close hydraulics valve which would raise or lower the 3 point arms - they did this to try and 'trick' the system in to opening or closing valves to either raise or lower arms... that also did not work. They tried putting in one of the 2 new valves they received as parts and that also did not solve problem.

So we're back to square 1. It is all reassembled and now with added problem of arms not raising or lowering. They did check to make sure fluid was filling the cavity and it is/was.

So now, the plan is to try and get the new Northeast Kioti Territory Rep to physically come to the Conway NH dealership to see what he can do to get Kioti to fix this. However, the new rep has to be told to go to the dealer by someone at Kioti HQ. Calls to Kioti HQ by the dealer have not been returned yet. Calls to the Northeast Rep also have not been returned yet. Apparently being unable to fix something for 6 weeks and a day is not sufficient to authorize sending a MFG Rep. I'm amazed at this customer service incompetence. Just simply amazed anyone can run a business like this.

I will be down at dealer first thing in morning, again. Send prayers .

thanks all,
Erik