Kioti 45 died while operating - likely electrical problem

[BigGuy]

Hi all,
I've read the other thread re. a Kioti 45 not starting with interest but rather than add to what seems to be a resolved issue, I've decided to start a new thread in hopes of some help.
Worked with the tractor this morning in the woods, digging up some dirt. All worked well for about 1 hr until it suddenly died. I mean I drove into a pile of dirt with the loader and that was it.
No lights on dashboard, no click from starter, zero.

Here is what I've done or found so far:
1. battery is brand-new (2 weeks old) INTERSTATE tractor battery, fully charged
2. battery ground connection to frame is good (removed, cleaned, tightened)
3. Have 12 v power at starter motor terminal
4. large 60 AMP main fuse is good (check visually, did not measure but no indication of corrosion or bun-through)

Went to dealer this AM, guy in shop recommend replacing ignition switch, said this is a common problem with KIOTI's. Bought new one for $85, plugged it in, nothing.
Spend a bit more time looking for loose connectors, etc. - did not find anything obvious.

Could it be the relays as they solved the problem in the other thread? If so, where can I get new ones?
Also, does anybody have a circuit diagram you could email to me?

Thanks for the help - finally a weekend without rain and the tractor died....

Big Guy

 

[SSdoxie]

Check the fuses, especially the OCU fuse 5 amp. That fuse has power to the OCU, which in turn triggers the fuel & start relay. Power through that fuse also triggers the Switched Power Relay which lights up the dash panel.

 

[ritcheyvs]

The only way electrical stuff would stop the engine is via stop solenoid. Some of these stop the engine when power is removed (probably what you have) while others require electrical power to operate the stop solenoid.

What kind (model and year) of Kioti 45 do you have (there are at least three different schematics)?

You appear to have a total 12v failure that effects everything on the tractor so try replacing (or jumper) the 60 amp fuse. What about other lights (brake light, flashers, etc)? You could have a bad relay but that would not stop the tractor, unless it blew the big fuse.

 

[Coyote machine]

Hi all,
I've read the other thread re. a Kioti 45 not starting with interest but rather than add to what seems to be a resolved issue, I've decided to start a new thread in hopes of some help.
Worked with the tractor this morning in the woods, digging up some dirt. All worked well for about 1 hr until it suddenly died. I mean I drove into a pile of dirt with the loader and that was it.
No lights on dashboard, no click from starter, zero.

Here is what I've done or found so far:
1. battery is brand-new (2 weeks old) INTERSTATE tractor battery, fully charged
2. battery ground connection to frame is good (removed, cleaned, tightened)
3. Have 12 v power at starter motor terminal
4. large 60 AMP main fuse is good (check visually, did not measure but no indication of corrosion or bun-through)

Went to dealer this AM, guy in shop recommend replacing ignition switch, said this is a common problem with KIOTI's. Bought new one for $85, plugged it in, nothing.
Spend a bit more time looking for loose connectors, etc. - did not find anything obvious.

Could it be the relays as they solved the problem in the other thread? If so, where can I get new ones?
Also, does anybody have a circuit diagram you could email to me?

Thanks for the help - finally a weekend without rain and the tractor died....

Big Guy

Could have been worse- tractor died IN the rain!
Try not to jump to conclusions about what happened on another tractor; and please don't replace anything else on a hunch- you're already out $85 for nothing.
First, why did you replace the battery? You could have a good ground connection at the frame and a good battery post connection at the battery, AND a bad ground cable! Try using a jumper cable's ground side clamps and attach one end to the battery negative post and the other end to the frame bolt or a clean ground on the frame.
We've seen many ground cables go bad on all kinds of tractors, (and boats, personal experiences), and you need to start ruling things out by systematic process of elimination. Test the 60 amp fuse with a meter, or a new fuse to make absolutely sure it is not the fault.
Post back results.

BTW, you can get Kioti relays only through Kioti dealers, but don't go there yet, until we diagnose your machine, with your help.
how many hours on the machine?

 

[BigGuy]

Thanks for the input, let me elaborate:
1. Kioti DK45 S, 2005 model, no cab, w. Kioti loader, around 550 hrs
2. Replaced battery two weeks ago because old one (installed Nov. 2012) was dead, had charged it overnight, would not hold charge. Brought back to dealer, he checked and his tester said "BAD", he replaced it at no charge under Interstate warranty. I made sure I got a battery specifically for a tractor (they had to order it). New battery reads 12.86 volts.
3. Good idea with ground cable, I did remove cable from bolt and cleaned both eyelet and frame area to bare metal before re-installing, but I did not check actual cable. Will try the jumper trick tomorrow.
4. 60 AMP fuse is good, checked it with new meter.
5. Have 12 volt to incoming side of ignition switch! I "assume" I also have 12 Volt downstream when switch is on, but neither new nor old switch will cause any lights to come on. I can check downstream side for sure tomorrow but I doubt both switches are completely dead.
6. Are there any fuses after the ignition switch?
7. Where is the 5 AMP "OCU" fuse the previous poster talked about? Fuses in the fuse box under left foot are all 10-15-20 AMP and they are ok.
8. I will bring new ignition switch to dealer if that turns out not to be the problem.
Thanks guys!

 

[TnAndy]

Here's something non-electrical to look for......my 2011 Yanmar had a similar problem....turned out to be a VERY small amount of crap in the fuel tank blocking the line. (Drill shavings from the factory when they installed the fitting in the plastic tank for the supply hose....can you believe that ? )

WHEN it dies, and before you move it or jiggle the tank, pull the fuel line off at the tank, and see if you get a BIG supply of fuel, or just a dribble. If just a dribble, stick a skinny screwdriver up in the fitting and see if you don't get a GUSH of fuel. If so, you found your problem, and though it LOOKED like electrical, it wasn't. Believe me, they hunted for an electrical problem on mine for weeks.

 

[ritcheyvs]

There were two versions in 2005, engines in s/n EC44-00208 and earlier use the stop solenoid on the right side of the engine with external linkages. S/n EC44-00209 and later have the stop solenoid on the front of the engine with no external levers and there is an oil fill on the right side of the engine. The shutoff circuits are different but most other things are the same.

Assuming you have the older (s/n 208 and below) this should be your schematic:
http://pt709.synology.me/electrical.xps

If you look at the schematic (top left) you'll see the +12 from the battery goes to the starter and then the switch, but also to the emergency flashers, that's why I asked if the flashers work. If not you have a bad fuse, a bad ground, or a bad connector. Use CM's booster-cable trick to see if you have a ground problem.

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks for the input, let me elaborate:
1. Kioti DK45 S, 2005 model, no cab, w. Kioti loader, around 550 hrs
2. Replaced battery two weeks ago because old one (installed Nov. 2012) was dead, had charged it overnight, would not hold charge. Brought back to dealer, he checked and his tester said "BAD", he replaced it at no charge under Interstate warranty. I made sure I got a battery specifically for a tractor (they had to order it). New battery reads 12.86 volts.
3. Good idea with ground cable, I did remove cable from bolt and cleaned both eyelet and frame area to bare metal before re-installing, but I did not check actual cable. Will try the jumper trick tomorrow.
4. 60 AMP fuse is good, checked it with new meter.
5. Have 12 volt to incoming side of ignition switch! I "assume" I also have 12 Volt downstream when switch is on, but neither new nor old switch will cause any lights to come on. I can check downstream side for sure tomorrow but I doubt both switches are completely dead.
6. Are there any fuses after the ignition switch?
7. Where is the 5 AMP "OCU" fuse the previous poster talked about? Fuses in the fuse box under left foot are all 10-15-20 AMP and they are ok.
8. I will bring new ignition switch to dealer if that turns out not to be the problem.
Thanks guys!

2 ig switches are not likely both bad, but Kioti has had their issues with ignition switches.
12.6 volts is nominal at battery. When it is running, the battery should read between 13.8-14.25 volts, depending on load applied- like headlights on, etc.
The OCU may not exist on your vintage DK-45.
Check out what you were going to first then we'll worry about more complicated things. I suspect your old battery went dead early due to your charging system NOT putting enough voltage back to the battery. The Interstate are the best batteries out there, ( I used to be one of their dealers when I had my shop). They're all I use; 2 on my boat, one on my DK-40, one on my Dr. brush mower, etc., etc.
Verify the cables, read the battery voltage when she's running, and post back results.

 

[BigGuy]

Thanks - I will check the warning flashers, I see where they should have power pretty much as soon as the battery is connected.

 

[BigGuy]

OK, I am back from the woods.
1. checked battery again, 12.61 volts
2. no dash lights came on
3. jumped ground from battery to frame - no improvement
4.jumped second (older 12.5v) battery in parallel with installed battery - no improvement
Here it comes:
5. decided to take battery out for recharging in workshop, had both terminals disconnected, then remembered that I wanted to check hazard flasher operation.
6. slipped terminals back on - flashers worked!
7. turned ignition switch - lights came on!
8. tightened terminals, turned ignition on, after preheating tried to start - nothing. All lights out again.
(terminals are clean, I use the felt washers underneath and I always put a layer of spray-on grease on the terminals after installing the battery)
I am pretty sure the battery needs a good charging, the fact that the lights came on briefly tells me no fuses or harnesses are out. Carried the battery back out of the woods to my shop - good workout! (that's when being 6'7" and 300+ lbs. comes in handy)

It must be like Coyote Machine said the charging system is not doing its job and the battery is being drained during operation.
Once I have the recharged battery back in and (hopefully) the tractor running, what should be the measured output of the generator? What is the correct way to test the generator and if the numbers come in low, can it be repaired or is replacement necessary?

Thanks Motor Seven for tip with sticks damaging something, I did check underneath and while I found a good amount of mud, no obvious damage or dangling wires/connectors were found.
Thanks to TN Andy for the tip re. water in fuel, makes good sense when tractor suddenly dies but it would not explain all lights being out on dashboard. I did change the fuel filter just a few weeks ago during routine maintenance.

I will report back later this PM when recharged battery is back in - thank you all for helping!!
Big Guy

 

[k0ua]

It is possible positive battery cables are "ate up" with corrosion or just bad connection on the inside of the insulation? you said you had no lights no flashers, then took battery out, then put it back in, now you have flashers, dash lights, and then when you tried to start you lost it all. When you tried to pull large amount of current the connection failed and now have no connections.. The first thing I would have done is measure the top of the battery terminals, right on the terminals with voltmeter. If I had about 12 volts, on the battery terminals, I would know it is a high resistance connection problem. If battery voltage is extremely low, you have a bad battery.. I don't think you have a bad battery, I think you have an intermittent high resistance connection. Yank on the positive battery wire, if it comes off of the terminal or pulls in two pieces you have found your problem.

 

[RandyT]

My first interstate Kioti battery lasted 6 months. You could turn on the ignition key, go through preheat, and hit the start position, and loose all lights. Turn off key, turn back on have lights, hit start, and loose everything. Had a bad cell in the battery. Could put on charger for 2 minutes, and it would start for a week. If you charged battery before testing would test good. Found bad when tested in fail mode. Second battery did same thing after 18 months. Third battery lasted 3 years, on 3rd year of 4th battery after owning tractor for 8 years. ,

You could have a bad cell in your new battery, will show 12v with meter but will fall on its face under load.

 

[k0ua]

My first interstate Kioti battery lasted 6 months. You could turn on the ignition key, go through preheat, and hit the start position, and loose all lights. Turn off key, turn back on have lights, hit start, and loose everything. Had a bad cell in the battery. Could put on charger for 2 minutes, and it would start for a week. If you charged battery before testing would test good. Found bad when tested in fail mode. Second battery did same thing after 18 months. Third battery lasted 3 years, on 3rd year of 4th battery after owning tractor for 8 years. ,

You could have a bad cell in your new battery, will show 12v with meter but will fall on its face under load.

True, that is possible, but a voltmeter on the terminals of the battery itself while another person is trying to start the tractor will reveal the failure of a battery also. But for sure the probes of the meter MUST be on the terminals of the battery itself not the clamp on terminals of the cable to eliminate the possibility of a high resistance connection between battery terminal and cable clamp. I am thinking seriously about going into the business of selling NO-OX-ID. If you use it on your new tractor/truck/car/lawn mower etc. you will not have connection/oxidation issues. If I could convince enough people of its efficacy and my 34 year track record of using it, perhaps I could make a living at that.

James K0UA

 

[ritcheyvs]

If your s/n is higher than 208 (e.g. stop solenoid on front of engine with no external linkages), let me know and I'll try to find the other schematic. The main difference is the stop solenoid. The old style used a timer circuit that energized the solenoid for several seconds after you switch the key to "off" and that shuts off fuel flow (causes the injection pump to inject zero fuel). The new style is spring-loaded to shut off fuel flow (again via the IP) and the solenoid is energized when the key is "on" (this overcomes the spring which allows the IP to inject fuel). By the way, there is an even newer design that uses two solenoid coils (engage and hold); I think the SE models have that.

 

[ritcheyvs]

What James said. Your experimentation this a.m. indicates a high resistance in the battery (like a bad cell) or positive battery cable (most probable). You probably ruled out a bad ground via the jumper cable test. If you don't have a helper (my usual condition) consider getting long meter leads (with alligator clips at the ends) so you can position the meter to be visible while you turn the key switch.

 

[BigGuy]

Update:
Installed freshly charged battery reading 13.4 volts
Cleaned terminals really good, hooked everthing up and tractor started right up!!!!! (Note; The terminals and battery post were clean to begin with, no visible corrosion but I cleaned them again anyway)
Have 14.5. Volts on battery terminals with engine running, also at starter motor so that would indicate the generator is working properly.
I wiggled the positve and negative battery cables back and forth, no change, seemed ok, the copper wire right at the battery clamp is still clean, not corroded, not "green".

Seems like things are ok for now, I have worked with the tractor for 1.5 hrs without a problem.
If any of you guys have a good plan to check the battery wires, etc. I would be happy to persue that. Somehow me thinks this is not the last time I will have to deal with this.

Again a heartfelt Thank You to all who responded with tips and help - I truly appreciate it!!
Big Guy

 

[Coyote machine]

Update:
Installed freshly charged battery reading 13.4 volts
Cleaned terminals really good, hooked everthing up and tractor started right up!!!!! (Note; The terminals and battery post were clean to begin with, no visible corrosion but I cleaned them again anyway)
Have 14.5. Volts on battery terminals with engine running, also at starter motor so that would indicate the generator is working properly.
I wiggled the positve and negative battery cables back and forth, no change, seemed ok, the copper wire right at the battery clamp is still clean, not corroded, not "green".

Seems like things are ok for now, I have worked with the tractor for 1.5 hrs without a problem.
If any of you guys have a good plan to check the battery wires, etc. I would be happy to persue that. Somehow me thinks this is not the last time I will have to deal with this.

Again a heartfelt Thank You to all who responded with tips and help - I truly appreciate it!!
Big Guy

There is no generator. there IS an alternator with built in voltage regulator, or possibly a separate one on your earlier model. Expect 13.8 volts-14.25 volts at the battery posts when the tractor is running, depending on load, like headlights on, etc. Anything outside that range is UNacceptable.
Use the felt washers, spray battery post protector spray on the posts AND clamps- available in any auto store. And spray it on the frame bolt at the ground connection.
BTW, you're welcome; and go get your ignition switch money back- if possible or keep it as a spare.