Kioti Loaders vs Kubota

[Yota_85]

Looking at CK30HST and CK35HST. Also Kubota B3030.

Been reading here on how the Kioti's loaders are stronger compared to their comparable Kubota's.
Specs from both websites are:
Kubota LA403 Lift Capacity @ pins 1091 lbs. Breakout @ pins 2314 lbs. Rated flow 5.2gpm @ 2405psi.
Kioti KL130 Lift capacity @ pins 1155 lbs. Breakout force @ pins 2046. Flow 12.7 gpm @ 2000 psi.

Not much difference, in fact the bota loader has a greater breakout force.
However, the Kioti loader has MORE THAN DOUBLE the flow.
What gives. Is the info on their web site incorrect, or is it just horribly underrated?

I don't want to start an orange flame war, just would like to know what gives.
I currently own a bota B7610, and was looking to upgrade it to a B3030. I then started looking at the Kioti/Bobcats for the extra weight, and bigger loader (?)
I've been on the forum for a while (though my stats have been lost somehow) and seen that the Kioti's are well liked tractors. Would definitely consider one. Just wanna know what's the deal with the loaders. My LA352 loader on my B7610 is 925 lbs, and I use every ounce of it. Looking to get the strongest loader I can.

Thanks.

 

[Dmace]

I don't know about the breakout force, maybe it's just the difference in design.

As far as the pump flow, the Kioti number is the total pump flow which includes the power steering. The Kubota number is probably just the attachments, the B3030 has a total pump flow of 9.1gpm vs. Kioti's CK30 total output of 12.7gpm. The higher pump flow is good for loader work because you don't loose as much in the power steering and HST while using the loader as you would with a lower pump output. Also, the Kioti can lift that max weight to a full height of 92.5" versus the Kubota's max height of 84.6".

The CK30/CK35 has a very comparable loader but the comments about the much higher lift capacity are usually about the CK20 (1074lbs) or the DK40 (2,761lbs) which are much higher then their competition.

The B3030 is a nice looking tractor with a optional factory cab which is nice.

 

[Gittyup]

It's interesting that Kioti has higher flow rates (I think it's about 7.5 gpm for implements), but as I recall Kubota has faster cycle times. I would have thought the reverse would be case.

If those breakout force numbers are correct, then I think the bota might have the real advantage. This is where my Kioti is lacking. Pure lift, though, it's a beast and probably underrated.

 

[IslandTractor]

The LA403 vs KL130 comparison is about the only horsepower equivalent loader comparison that is close between Kioti and Kubota. However if you look at what $Xx,xxx will buy you in the Kioti line up compared to what you'd pay for the B3030 I believe you will be looking more at the DK35se or even DK40se which have clearly more powerful loaders. The KL401 is literally more than double the power of the LA403. Of course that sort of comparison on value for the buck rather than just horsepower assumes that the Kubota and Kioti are both similarly discounted from list.

 

[Dmace]

Since the thread was closed, I will continue the loader comparison here since that is what this thread is about.

Here is a quote from the closed thread about cylinder sizing in question:

I for one believe that either kubota is way underrated or kioti is way over-rated on the loader specs. Let me back it up with facts pulled off both their websites.

Kioti lift cylinder = 1.18" Max PSI = 2682
Kubota Lift Cyl = 1.57" Max PSI = 1778

Kioti cylinder = 2933lbs of force
kubota cyl = 3442 lbs of force (even at much lower pressure)

times 2 cyls. The kubota is mutting out over 1000lbs more force where the cylinder attaches to the boom. How is it possible that the kioti can lift almost 300lbs more at the pins I know the geometry and angles may be just a little different but get real.

I was intrigued by this so while working with my tractor today and I measured the cylinder sizes.
Here is a picture of the lift cylinder with a tape measuring in tenths and 1/16ths: (click thumbnail for larger image)

The cylinder measures from 0.12ft to 0.27ft for a total of 0.15ft roughly which is approx 1.8" (about 1-13/16") vs. the Kioti site which states 1.18", apparently they put an extra 1 in there.
And here is a picture of the lifting rod measured with the same tape: (click thumbnail for larger image)

The rod measures from 0.08ft to about 0.16ft for a total of roughly 0.08ft which is approx 1". This clearly shows that the lift cylinder cannot possibly be only 1.18" as stated on the site.

He then went on to say this:

I think if the kl120 loader can ACTUALLY lift 1074 lbs at the pins with the tiny 1.18" cylinders and 2682psi, Then I think all the other loaders mentioned are WAY underrated. The only other possibility is maybe it is a typo on the website, b/c 1.18" cylinders are tiny. The rod on my cylinders is that big, so now I am wondering if they gave the rod dia. instead of cyl diameter. If that is the case, it all makes sense now.

So it looks like he was right in thinking their was a typo. I don't think Kioti is underrating their loaders, they are just that good.

 

[LD1]

The LA403 vs KL130 comparison is about the only horsepower equivalent loader comparison that is close between Kioti and Kubota. However if you look at what $Xx,xxx will buy you in the Kioti line up compared to what you'd pay for the B3030 I believe you will be looking more at the DK35se or even DK40se which have clearly more powerful loaders. The KL401 is literally more than double the power of the LA403. Of course that sort of comparison on value for the buck rather than just horsepower assumes that the Kubota and Kioti are both similarly discounted from list.

I have to respectfully disagree with the comment about the 403 and 130 loaders being the only close comparison. It's hard to sift through all the kubota models as they offer several different sized tractors with the same/similar HP ratings wheras kioti doesnt. An example in the 50 hp range kubota offers the L**40 series, the M**40 seried and the mx5100.
In the low 30 hp range they offer the B3200, B3030, the L3400, and the L3240.

Some of these may be smaller freamed and don't compare to the kioti's, but if you look, kubota has a loader in about every class as kioti that compares about equally as well.

Examples: Lift Breakout
DK35 w/kl351 1412 2640
Bota 3240/35410 w/la724 1867 3403

Dk 40se/45se w/kl401 2761 3727
bota 4240/4740 w/la854 2489 4195

Dk45s w/451 2800 4500
M5040 w/la1153 2536@bucket center Not listed

While kubota may offer models that may not stack up in terms of #'s and loader strength, they clearly offers a model of tractor to compete with the kioti's, from a #'s standpoint only.

I won't argue price, because I will bethe first admit that kioti's are more affordable and you may get "bang for your buck", but not in all cases. That is why it is important to do your homework and shop around.

I have said it before, competition is good for everyone. If Kioti was the only tractor MFG on the planet, their prices would be sky high, with no competition to keep them in check.

However, that being said, I think kioti makes a very good solid tractor and I think they will be around for a long time. It wouldn't suprise me if in 20 years, their prices were more in line with the other big MFG's once they have become as well established as they are. But right now, with them still being a younger company in the USA, they have to keep their prices down to be competitive. If their prices were the same as JD, cNH, kubota, etc, not many people would give them a second look. But in about 20 years, I think that will change and they will be competitive at the higher level. They are definatally on the right track to do so.

 

[MDM]

I'm sure the OP knows that the 3030 is about 1,000lbs less machine than the CK30/35. Should be comparing the 3240 to the Kioti's or atleast the 2800/3400 Kubotas.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have to respectfully disagree

I don't think we are that far off in our points. Kubota has many more models and some of the bigger ones do have strong loaders. However, as you have pointed out the comparisons are difficult if you compare by what $X dollars will get you in terms of loader power. Kioti tends to win those comparisons and the pricing argument you made is I believe correct. Kioti is the Hyundai of the tractor world, funky choice a few years ago but increasingly respected and obviously a good value.

Loaders may be only one of the many differentiating points in comparison shopping tractors but they are I think more important to CUT owners than to Ag tractor owners who are more focused on pulling. For me, based on my work which is largely clearing land, the loader lift and breakout are more important than most other features. Still, like most of us I had a budget so was looking for a tractor that would be a significant upgrade (had a CK20 before) in loader power.

My DK40se has 40hp. There is a Kubota just below and just above at 39 and 42. The L3940 loader choices don't come close to the KL401 in power. The L4240 does have something closer as you pointed out. However the prices pushed me to the DK40se/KL401 combo and did so pretty dramatically. I bought a couple of years ago and got the combo for mid 18's. I couldn't come close to the equivalent HP L series for that and in fact as I recall it was closer to the B3030 in cost.

I have never heard Kubota explain why they don't put stronger loaders on their tractors (especially the B series) but I imagine it has something to do with the lighter weight of those tractors. Kubota sales people love to talk about how the light weight is due to higher quality metals and engineering but I think there are compromises to keep the tractor that light. Light is fabulous for mowing which is one of Kubota's main success areas so it makes perfect sense for them to build light. However things like the size and strength of the front axles/gear are to a great extent limited when the equipment is kept light (short of using exotic materials) and I presume that limits the amount of force Kubota wants those parts subjected to. A powerful loader can put a lot of stress on a tractors front end. If you look at the Kioti DK35se, the only difference between that and the DK40se is 2 horsepower and a smaller set of axles. That is likely why Kioti puts the much less powerful KL351 on the DK35se. I have to believe that it is this type of consideration, certainly not engineering know how that keeps stronger loaders off the lighter Kubotas.

Note added: Kubota loaders like the LA724 on the L3940 are often faster than the Kioti equivalent (eg KL401). I think that is because Kubota uses the same hydraulic flow for speed as it chooses not to use it for capacity.

 

[art]

Kubota's design life time might be a bit higher then some of the other makes. Trying to build a tractor and attachments around a 10,000 hour life vs someone with a two thousand or three thousand life cycle is a lot different.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I have never heard Kubota explain why they don't put stronger loaders on their tractors

There is a very simple answer to that. Kubota is an insanely conservative company. When it comes to putting too much force on the machine, they always opt to play it safe. You will never see them put on a loader that's even remotely marginal for what the rest of the tractor can handle. Its a bit irritating at times. We wanted a backhoe moved 2" on one machine, they did not want to do it because of the impact on the tractor. These guys engineer the heck out of everything... good thing is, the quality is simply unbelievable, bad thing is you'll sometimes find companies who will push the limit harder.

 

[IslandTractor]

Art and Neil have interesting points. I guess my question then is who needs a CUT that is engineered to last 10,000hrs? Expensive commercial equipment yes, but most CUTs are used by individuals in less stenuous applications. I'd guess (based on 50miles/hour driving a car) that 10,000hrs correlates to about 500,000 miles on a road vehicle. Sounds like a Mercedes 240D. I think I'd rather have a bit more performance or a less expensive equivalent vehicle that was solid for half that many miles or hours. The average CUT owner probably puts 100-200 hours/year on their machine. That works out to 50-100 years by Kubota engineering standards...not sure that is a really relevant goal for private use.

I don't need to be convinced that Kubotas are conservatively engineered but I still wonder about the compromises made to get the weight down on the B series in particular. I don't doubt for a nanosecond that those machines will do their routine lawn mowing tasks efficiently for ever but what happens when you do start using them for land clearing or less than delicate TLB tasks. I wouldn't expect them to fall apart but I wonder if under those conditions they would really last the fabled 10,000 hours.

Bottom line for me is that I would have been very happy with an equivalent Kubota for both of the Kioti's I have owned but the equivalent model in terms of real performance in the land clearing tasks I have would mean a bigger Kubota (HP and $$$) than the task equivalent Kioti (again, limiting this comparison to loader tasks).

PS, nice to see Art and Neil cruising the Kioti forum.

 

[Dmace]

I guess my question then is who needs a CUT that is engineered to last 10,000hrs? Expensive commercial equipment yes, but most CUTs are used by individuals in less stenuous applications. I'd guess (based on 50miles/hour driving a car) that 10,000hrs correlates to about 500,000 miles on a road vehicle.

Hey, just because you are not keeping your tractor for 60 years doesn't mean we're not...

By the way I just got a new truck to haul my tractor, it has less horsepower then my current truck and only seats two instead of six but I hear I can get 400,000 miles out of it before it needs work.

What do you think...?

 

[IXLR8]

By the way I just got a new truck to haul my tractor, it has less horsepower then my current truck and only seats two instead of six but I hear I can get 400,000 miles out of it before it needs work.

What do you think...?

Derek,
Nice truck I like the entrance to your home as well.

 

[Gittyup]

Just curious where the basis of 10K vs 3K hours comes from.

Art and Neil:
Of the botas we are talking about here (B and L series CUTs, except industrials, I guess), how many are you aware of with close to 10,000 hours? And how many of those have not had a major overhaul? About when do these Kubotas need an overhaul, if ever?

To the Kioti dealers (and Art and Neil):
How is it derived that Kiotis last 2 - 3,000 hours? About when do Kiotis need an overhaul?

 

[IslandTractor]

Just curious where the basis of 10K vs 3K hours comes from.

Art and Neil:
Of the botas we are talking about here (B and L series CUTs, except industrials, I guess), how many are you aware of with close to 10,000 hours? And how many of those have not had a major overhaul? About when do these Kubotas need an overhaul, if ever?

To the Kioti dealers (and Art and Neil):
How is it derived that Kiotis last 2 - 3,000 hours? About when do Kiotis need an overhaul?

I did not take their points as literal but rather an indication of how conservatively they feel the Kubotas are engineered. I'm sure they don't know how long Kioti's will last either. Not many CUTs will make it to even 3000-4000 hours before they are abandoned in a barn somewhere in favor of a new fancy solar/wind powered hybrid tractor anyway after diesel prices hit $50/gallon.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Just curious where the basis of 10K vs 3K hours comes from.

Art and Neil:
Of the botas we are talking about here (B and L series CUTs, except industrials, I guess), how many are you aware of with close to 10,000 hours? And how many of those have not had a major overhaul? About when do these Kubotas need an overhaul, if ever?

To the Kioti dealers (and Art and Neil):
How is it derived that Kiotis last 2 - 3,000 hours? About when do Kiotis need an overhaul?

I don't think either of us said anything about other machines out lasting Kioti's. I do think anyone can take an objective look at both forums you'll find many more problems with Kioti's than Kubotas, especially when adjusted for each companies market share and the tendency of irate owners to jump online and vent. Without a doubt you can attribute some of that to the companies perspective on quality engineering.

I do agree that the B's run on the light side for heavy loader work. When we put machines into that application we blast them down. Kubota typically will okay increasing the machines weight 50% with ballast. A vast majority of the applications that these machines go into benefit from a light weight tractor. I would not want a heavy B-series machine. If we need anything its a deluxe machine the size of the L-3400.

10,000 hours on a compact is pretty unheard of. 7000-8000 happens at times. In the utility tractor space you'll see 10-12,000 once and a while. Most Zero turn mowers are done around 1,500 and you can get 3000-4000 out of a Kubota, that's probably the most outstanding difference between an orange machine and their competition. We rarely need to overhaul engines simply due to day to day use.

 

[Yota_85]

Thanks to all responses.

To answer some questions that came up:

Yes, I'm aware the Kioti CK30/35 outweighs the B3030 by a large margin. And that is why the CK30/35 interests me. It seems like a good weight and priced less than a B3030.
A 3240 Grand L may be too heavy, large (size wise) and cost wise, even though it has a unbeatable loader.

I can attest to Kubota's dependability/reliability. Besides a few minor items with my B7610, it has been flawless for close to 5 years. If I decide on a Kioti, I hope that it will treat me just as well.

I am interested in a quick attack loader, to swap the bucket for forks. Lifting pallets in/out of my truck. I think the loader for the B3030 isn't up to this task. 1000-1500 lbs on a pallet. That's around half the weight of the tractor/loader/ballast combo.

A few suggested (from a price stand point) that the B3030 (around $18-$19K w/loader) buys you a DK35 in a Kioti. Though I know little of the DK series, from what I've read here, they weigh considerably more than the CK30/35.

I do have a lawn to cross guys. There could be such a thing as too heavy.

And also, I have a very hilly property. Some fields I have to mow cross wise. No way around it. The B7610 I have is pretty stable. Though a longer wheelbase and wider would certainly help. Considering either a B3030 or CK30 will be quite TALLER than my 7610.


Again, thank to all who responded.

 

[MDM]

The Kubota L2800/3400 may interest you if you want something larger than a 3030 about the same physical size as the CK30 with a tad less weight.

 

[Gittyup]

Kubota's design life time might be a bit higher then some of the other makes. Trying to build a tractor and attachments around a 10,000 hour life vs someone with a two thousand or three thousand life cycle is a lot different.

This statement was made, and then followed by one from Messick: "... bad thing is you'll sometimes find companies who will push the limit harder.", which one would assume he is talking about Kioti (perhaps among others) as if they are designed to marginal standards or workmanship.

I'm not trying to be defensive. I simply was wondering the basis of such statements. Are they conjecture or based on some factual information that most of us are not prevy to? These statements are far different than a general summation (which I agree with) that there appears to be a greater number of problems reported on the Kioti forum vs. Kubota, et.al. for the number of tractors sold by each brand.

 

[IslandTractor]

Art and Neal sell Kubotas. No way they are going to say anything that might be construed as approval of a Kioti. Little digs against the competition are fair game and near universal practice. I don't see their comments as any worse than what we dish out when discussing wimpy loaders on the other orange tractors.

The fact that they stay in touch with what is going on in this forum shows that 1) they are good businessmen/salesmen who need to know the competition and 2) Kioti is nipping at Kubota's big heels and is being noticed. I betcha three or four years ago they were focused almost exclusively on selling against JD and maybe NH. If they are smart (and they are) then it is only reasonable for them to keep up with Kioti and Mahindra looking for competitive advantage as well these days.