Piller: the 12 speed (non creep) cost around 1 K more. most of my fels work, heavy tillage is in low range and although I haven't used it yet, my feeling is that I'll be doing less shifting from high to low. Haying would be a good application If you want, just email me and I'll send you the gear ratio differences in the 4 vs 8 speed ....the ratios are bacically the same from one end to the other, just spread out over 6 rather than 4 (with H or L) to me, a hydraulic shuttle (at about the same price I think) would be far handier if you had to choose between the two. good luck bb