L 4060 slow FEL when box blade is on the 3PH

[jgoodma1]

I also posted this on OTT.........I bought a used L4060 with 170 hours on it a few weeks ago. I have used it for a few hours, only using the FEL. The tires are loaded with beet juice and I have not needed any ballast hanging on the 3PH yet. I bought an old 6' Gannon rollover box blade for my first 3PH attachment. Today, I put the ROBB on my tractor and proceeded to grade my 800' long driveway, which needed some maintenance. At this point, I had my FEL bucket raised a couple of feet off the driveway and I just had it sitting in that position as I ran around, back and forth on the driveway. I got to the point where I needed to do a little back-blading to smooth things out and it was at this point that I discovered that the FEL would raise and lover VERY slowly. The only way I could make it lower more quickly was to push the lever to float position and then the bucket would drop quickly. But if I wanted to control the raising or lowering of the bucket, it would just poke along very very slowly. Next, while sitting still, I lowered the box blade to the ground and the FEL returned to its normal, quick performance and it operated as it should. When I raised the 3PH to its maximum height with the box blade again, and just sat there with the box blade suspended above the ground, the FEL again was crawling along very slowly. This sequence happened repeatedly today. When I removed the box blade and raised the empty 3PH lift arms to their maximum height, the FEL again was operating very slowly. When I dropped the lift arms to a level position.....so that the arms were roughly parallel with the driveway surface, the proper performance of the FEL returned and continued to work properly until I parked it this evening.

Can anyone give me any clues about what is going on? I was running the machine at 2000 rpm the whole time. I was hoping to use that old 800+ pound Gannon box blade as additional ballast when using the FEL, but the loader was basically unusable today when I had the box blade suspended above the ground as I would have it if I were using it for ballast. It is taxing the hydraulic system when the hydraulics are needing to hold it off the ground? Or is there some adjustment that might need to be done (which I have no clue about how to make such an adjustment)? Thank you.

 

[Grandad4]

Your 3 point is out of adjustment. There is a "feedback adjustment" mechanism that tells the lift system to hold and stop trying to raise the implement further when the lift arms are fully raised. When out of adjustment, it deadheads the hydraulics, limiting flow to the FEL.

Some adjustment is needed to the feedback rod, should be pretty simple. Diagram:
Kubota L4060HST Parts Diagrams

If you don't raise the 3 point control ALL the way up, I think you should be able to use the FEL until you get the chance to fiddle with the adjustment.

 

[JWR]

Never owned that model. With only 170hrs on it it should still be under warrantee unless it is over 5yrs old. The loaders guarantees may be shorter (?) It is for MF I know.
A few comments:
1) That tractor is spec to lift 2760 lbs at 24" out. The 800 lb box or whatever it is should be EASY and not affect the loader operation. Not a big load at all.
2) Was the loader plumbed correctly by a dealer when installed ? My first guess here is NO. [Or else he installed some debris too while he was at it.]
3) If at all possible I'd have the original selling dealer look at it long enough to diagnose it no matter what the guarantee situation is. That is too darn near a new machine.
4) What does the prior owner say? Was it working OK for him?
5) Maybe the pump flow is being restricted somehow. You only have the one pump on that tractor besides steering. If no other clues pan out, change the hydraulic filter (they are a little pricey. Like 5 or 6 times the cost of an oil filter or more. But buying a low hours near-new machine I'd change that filter for sure.)
6) Plenty of hyd fluid in the sump ? Checked the level ?
7) Lack of normal FEL lift & lower would suggest restriction of some kind in/near the loader valve. Because it lowers slowly when not in float one would say surely there is an obstruction in the loader valve BUT how then does it raise/lower normally when there is no load on the 3pt !!?? CRAZY. That thought process is what causes me to question if the loader was plumbed correctly by whoever installed it. Potentially the loader valve itself is bad or needs some serious adjustment to the spools. Hard to see how the 3pt load surfaces that kind of issue though.
8) One parting thought -- a sick one -- if the tractor's hyd pump were bad/damaged I could very well see how you would be limited on lift and migth be able to lift EITHER the 3pt or the FEL but I can't see a limited or damaged hyd pump causing slow lowering as that requires no pump pressure !! The same logic would apply if I started thinking the relief valve (which is probably in line ahead of both the loader and the 3pt lift) was maladjusted or bad and was reducing the fluid pressure in the out put from the pump before it gets up to where a 'good' relief valve would dump. With what you have stated ... I'm stumped.
Go back and check all the things mentioned above and hope for it being something simple.

If the fluid is full and the filter is not plugged you got a real puzzle there jgoodma ! Please keep us abreast of this story as time goes on... has to be a good one that will stump a LOT of people !

Of course if you get it to a shop with good pressure guages, etc. they can narrow down where pressure is 'normal' and where it is way too low. That much of a test should not be expensive either.

 

[jgoodma1]

Your 3 point is out of adjustment. There is a "feedback adjustment" mechanism that tells the lift system to hold and stop trying to raise the implement further when the lift arms are fully raised. When out of adjustment, it deadheads the hydraulics, limiting flow to the FEL.

Some adjustment is needed to the feedback rod, should be pretty simple. Diagram:
Kubota L4060HST Parts Diagrams

If you don't raise the 3 point control ALL the way up, I think you should be able to use the FEL until you get the chance to fiddle with the adjustment.

Thank you. A guy on OTT suggested the same thing and I do have the WSM and I found the page with that adjustment, so I'm going to see if I can figure out how to do the adjustment without screwing it up (I'm a pretty sorry mechanic). I'm most concerned about whether I can damage something if I don't do the adjust meant correctly. And I did not pay attention today regarding where I had the box blade hanging in the travel of the 3PH arms. I know I had them all the way up, which caused the problem and I know I had them all the way down, which solved the problem, but I don't recall if I had them halfway and I will try that tomorrow. More evidence to support your suggestion is the fact that when I had the arms all the way up without any implement on them I had the FEL problem, which suggests that it is the adjustment that you are talking about. The guy on OTT said there should be a feedback rod connected to the left side small arm (rock shaft) and a tab. It can be adjusted so the lift stops and doesn’t go into relief. That steals fluid flow from the feel. In reading that page of the WSM it says to turn the adjusting nut until "the relief valve begins to be operated". How do I tell that the relief valve is operating? I don't even know what the relief valve looks like. The WSM assumes that you're smart enough to know what it looks like and where it is....which I am not

 

[jgoodma1]

Never owned that model. With only 170hrs on it it should still be under warrantee unless it is over 5yrs old. The loaders guarantees may be shorter (?) It is for MF I know.
A few comments:
1) That tractor is spec to lift 2760 lbs at 24" out. The 800 lb box or whatever it is should be EASY and not affect the loader operation. Not a big load at all.
2) Was the loader plumbed correctly by a dealer when installed ? My first guess here is NO. [Or else he installed some debris too while he was at it.]
3) If at all possible I'd have the original selling dealer look at it long enough to diagnose it no matter what the guarantee situation is. That is too darn near a new machine.
4) What does the prior owner say? Was it working OK for him?
5) Maybe the pump flow is being restricted somehow. You only have the one pump on that tractor besides steering. If no other clues pan out, change the hydraulic filter (they are a little pricey. Like 5 or 6 times the cost of an oil filter or more. But buying a low hours near-new machine I'd change that filter for sure.)
6) Plenty of hyd fluid in the sump ? Checked the level ?
7) Lack of normal FEL lift & lower would suggest restriction of some kind in/near the loader valve. Because it lowers slowly when not in float one would say surely there is an obstruction in the loader valve BUT how then does it raise/lower normally when there is no load on the 3pt !!?? CRAZY. That thought process is what causes me to question if the loader was plumbed correctly by whoever installed it. Potentially the loader valve itself is bad or needs some serious adjustment to the spools. Hard to see how the 3pt load surfaces that kind of issue though.
8) One parting thought -- a sick one -- if the tractor's hyd pump were bad/damaged I could very well see how you would be limited on lift and migth be able to lift EITHER the 3pt or the FEL but I can't see a limited or damaged hyd pump causing slow lowering as that requires no pump pressure !! The same logic would apply if I started thinking the relief valve (which is probably in line ahead of both the loader and the 3pt lift) was maladjusted or bad and was reducing the fluid pressure in the out put from the pump before it gets up to where a 'good' relief valve would dump. With what you have stated ... I'm stumped.
Go back and check all the things mentioned above and hope for it being something simple.

If the fluid is full and the filter is not plugged you got a real puzzle there jgoodma ! Please keep us abreast of this story as time goes on... has to be a good one that will stump a LOT of people !

Of course if you get it to a shop with good pressure guages, etc. they can narrow down where pressure is 'normal' and where it is way too low. That much of a test should not be expensive either.

Thank you. A couple of people have said it’s an adjustment on the 3PH (see one other person’s reply in this thread to my questions ) and I found the page in the WSM that addresses those adjustments. I’m going to give it a shot tomorrow. With regard to some of your questions, all fluids and all filters were changed by the dealer before I bought it. It’s a 2016 so no warranty. It looks brand new. The previous owner narrowly missed getting killed when he pulled a tree over on it. He was hurt but not killed. The tree dented the hood, took out the entire dash assembly and all digital components within, the steering wheel and upper steering linkage, and dented the left rear fender. My dealership bought it from the insurance company and replaced all those components with new and did a complete service on it. Other than the steering linkage damage, there were no mechanical components or engine components damaged. My dealer was not the original dealership of the sale. I had an L48 TLB that I sold to buy this machine because I had 1300 hours on it and was starting to have to put serious money into it because I’m such a lousy mechanic, let alone diagnostic mechanic. I tend to make things worse when I try to fix them on a vehicle or tractor, so I’m pretty aware of my limitations and I really need to have a very clear understanding of what I’m fixing so I don’t cause further damage. I really don’t understand hydraulics schematics and I wish I could find a good book on the subject that could take a beginning moron like me through the workings of a tractor ‘s hydraulics like they’re talking to a first grader. The explanations I read always seem to assume a basic understanding of hydraulics and I don’t understand them because I don’t have that basic understanding. Like in my current situation, I’ll need to, per the WSM “make sure the relief valve is operating properly”. Well, what the hell does that mean and where is the damn pressure relief valve? What does the “proper operation “ of a pressure relief valve look like? That’s the level of my lack of knowledge about tractor hydraulics that we’re talking about here. So I’m going to see if I can figure out the adjustments tomorrow and see if that proves to be what the problem has been.

 

[SDT]

Your 3 point is out of adjustment. There is a "feedback adjustment" mechanism that tells the lift system to hold and stop trying to raise the implement further when the lift arms are fully raised. When out of adjustment, it deadheads the hydraulics, limiting flow to the FEL.

Some adjustment is needed to the feedback rod, should be pretty simple. Diagram:
Kubota L4060HST Parts Diagrams

If you don't raise the 3 point control ALL the way up, I think you should be able to use the FEL until you get the chance to fiddle with the adjustment.

Bingo.

Not uncommon and even more common if optional draft control is installed.

SDT

 

[SDT]

Thank you. A couple of people have said it’s an adjustment on the 3PH (see one other person’s reply in this thread to my questions ) and I found the page in the WSM that addresses those adjustments. I’m going to give it a shot tomorrow. With regard to some of your questions, all fluids and all filters were changed by the dealer before I bought it. It’s a 2016 so no warranty. It looks brand new. The previous owner narrowly missed getting killed when he pulled a tree over on it. He was hurt but not killed. The tree dented the hood, took out the entire dash assembly and all digital components within, the steering wheel and upper steering linkage, and dented the left rear fender. My dealership bought it from the insurance company and replaced all those components with new and did a complete service on it. Other than the steering linkage damage, there were no mechanical components or engine components damaged. My dealer was not the original dealership of the sale. I had an L48 TLB that I sold to buy this machine because I had 1300 hours on it and was starting to have to put serious money into it because I’m such a lousy mechanic, let alone diagnostic mechanic. I tend to make things worse when I try to fix them on a vehicle or tractor, so I’m pretty aware of my limitations and I really need to have a very clear understanding of what I’m fixing so I don’t cause further damage. I really don’t understand hydraulics schematics and I wish I could find a good book on the subject that could take a beginning moron like me through the workings of a tractor ‘s hydraulics like they’re talking to a first grader. The explanations I read always seem to assume a basic understanding of hydraulics and I don’t understand them because I don’t have that basic understanding. Like in my current situation, I’ll need to, per the WSM “make sure the relief valve is operating properly”. Well, what the hell does that mean and where is the damn pressure relief valve? What does the “proper operation “ of a pressure relief valve look like? That’s the level of my lack of knowledge about tractor hydraulics that we’re talking about here. So I’m going to see if I can figure out the adjustments tomorrow and see if that proves to be what the problem has been.

When the relief valve opens you will hear the engine labor (do this at idle) and probably hear a muffled hissing sound.

SDT

 

[JWR]

Yes, as SDT says that relief valve yielding to the pressure is often a squeal or higher pitched sound in some tractors.

About the relief valve: for sure go by your WSM and it should not be a complex thing for harry tractowner to go adjust. Usually (not sure of you configuration) the relief valve is on the housing for your remotes in back, then the "power forward" hose goes from there to the loader valve. This is not always the case but in that configuration one relief valve protects the pump and sets the max pressure everywhere in your hyd system. Your WSM should show you what the relief valve looks like, where it is and how to adjust it. You are not likely to hurt anything by doing a little cut-and-try there with plus/minus adjustments.
Do you have a control for Draft ? Your owners manual should explain what that looks like and how to set it. If it exists you want to have the Draft lever in whatever position takes 'Draft control' (used only for plowing and ground penetration stuff) out of the picture.
Granddad in post #2 is obviously on the right track to get you 'fixed' and happy.

Even though there is no warrantee in effect and access to the original selling dealer is gone, I would bet that "your dealer" the one who refurbed the tractor from a wreck and sold it to you, will be quite helpful at least verbally with many issues AND maybe even some minor repairs. Did you buy it "as-is" or was there some guarantee like 90 days or something?
By the way -- I think you are VERY fortunate to have acquired the 4060 the way you did and ending up with a darn near new tractor for far less money. Well, I assume far less money. The 4060 should be a great machine to own. [I have friends with one they have had for several years and it is a real workhorse.]

Good luck ! We do want to hear the rest of the story when you are over this problem.

 

[jgoodma1]

Yes, as SDT says that relief valve yielding to the pressure is often a squeal or higher pitched sound in some tractors.

About the relief valve: for sure go by your WSM and it should not be a complex thing for harry tractowner to go adjust. Usually (not sure of you configuration) the relief valve is on the housing for your remotes in back, then the "power forward" hose goes from there to the loader valve. This is not always the case but in that configuration one relief valve protects the pump and sets the max pressure everywhere in your hyd system. Your WSM should show you what the relief valve looks like, where it is and how to adjust it. You are not likely to hurt anything by doing a little cut-and-try there with plus/minus adjustments.
Do you have a control for Draft ? Your owners manual should explain what that looks like and how to set it. If it exists you want to have the Draft lever in whatever position takes 'Draft control' (used only for plowing and ground penetration stuff) out of the picture.
Granddad in post #2 is obviously on the right track to get you 'fixed' and happy.

Even though there is no warrantee in effect and access to the original selling dealer is gone, I would bet that "your dealer" the one who refurbed the tractor from a wreck and sold it to you, will be quite helpful at least verbally with many issues AND maybe even some minor repairs. Did you buy it "as-is" or was there some guarantee like 90 days or something?
By the way -- I think you are VERY fortunate to have acquired the 4060 the way you did and ending up with a darn near new tractor for far less money. Well, I assume far less money. The 4060 should be a great machine to own. [I have friends with one they have had for several years and it is a real workhorse.]

Good luck ! We do want to hear the rest of the story when you are over this problem.

Thank you, everyone. It is in indeed the relief valve setting on the 3PH, and think even I can adjust that and not screw anything up! I raised the lift arms to ever-higher positions and the FEL worked fine all the way to almost-the-top. And then, when I reached the top, the slow-loader symptoms hit. So I lowered the arms just a little and it worked fine again. I was able to operate the 3PH and look around to the back of the tractor to see the relief valve activation rod move and I can see how to adjust it and it will be a minor adjustment. So thanks for all the advice and patience.

JWR, I did get a good deal (I think).....$25K. The previous owner garaged it and only put about 35 hours a year on it. It truly looks brand new. I had a Kubota L48 TLB that I used to get the heavy work done around my property, and that work was complete and I was starting to have to put some money into the machine and a split was in the not-too-distant future. I didn't need a backhoe anymore and I needed a 3PH for maintaining my driveway, so I sold the L48 and was looking for a replacement with at least 40 HP because I do move some heavier stuff with the FEL. I was going to get a new LS tractor because the new Kubotas were out of my budget, but the dealer was 1.5 hours away, and that made me a bit nervous. But, because of my lacking mechanic skills, I wanted a new or low hours machine so I wouldn't have to be spending a lot of money on repairs. A few days before I was going to pull the trigger on an LS, this L4060 with 170 hours popped up at my local Kubota dealer, where I used to take my L48 (20 minutes away) and I jumped on it

 

[Fallon]

Bingo.

Not uncommon and even more common if optional draft control is installed.

SDT

My L4060 was misadjusted on the 3pt feedback the day I hauled it home brand new from the dealer. Doesn't seem to be that rare of an issue.