L47TLB vs L4701

[fishhead]

rScotty - could you give a little more explanation about what happens with the draft control and the 3ph mounted hoes? Not sure i fully understand the interaction- but it sure does not sound good-thanks

 

[rScotty]

rScotty - could you give a little more explanation about what happens with the draft control and the 3ph mounted hoes? Not sure i fully understand the interaction- but it sure does not sound good-thanks

Sure, glad to. Draft control is a little bit non-intuitive anyway, and I'm sort of a bug on the subject since it nearly got me. I'll try to explain it as well as I can, but if it doesn't make sense I'd bet that that Google has some articles.

Here's how draft control is supposed to work:
It was originally designed for plowing or any ground-engaging implement to even out the plowing depth and prevent the plow from suddenly stopping the tractor if it hit a buried rock or stump. Because if the obstruction were strong enough to stop all forward motion while the tractor's power was still going to the rear wheels then what would happen is that the front of the tractor would rise up in a deadly "wheelie" and rotate around the rear axle until it fell backwards onto the operator. OOps....

So to prevent that, draft control was invented. When draft control is engaged on a tractor, what it does is to quickly & automatically raise the 3 pt implement (by hydraulically raising the lower links) a few inches anytime that the top link of the 3pt hitch senses that the towed implement has hit an obstruction. Draft control senses an obstruction because hitting something puts an excessive compressive load into the top link of the 3 pt hitch. Now if raising the implement a few inches the first time doesn't remove the compression on the top link, the system very quickly raises the implement a few more inches...and if that doesn't work, it does it again and again....quicker and quicker....until a reduced compressive load on the top link of the 3pt allows it to quit.
Draft control absolutely has to act vey quickly - much more quickly than a person's reaction time - because once it starts to actuate, the probability is that the front wheels are already coming off the ground and the tractor is beginning to rotate up and over around the rear axle. Before draft control that wheelie rotation was a major cause of field accidents with tractors. You'll see warnings about this in most tractor operator manuals.

Does your tractor have draft control? Not all do. Either look in the operator manual or take a look at where your 3pt's top link connects to the tractor. If that point on the back of the tractor is hinged, and especially if it is hinged and has several slightly different mounting points, then you have a tractor with draft control. The different mounting points are there to allow a crude control over how much compressive force the top link can put on the mount before the draft control automatically actuates.

That's draft control. Most ag based tractors have it and that's good. But there's a subtle danger with a 3pt hoe. Because with the 3pt hoe if you push DOWN at a certain angle with the bucket, dipper, or boom you will be putting a compressive load on the top link of the 3 pt. If the automatic draft control is engaged it quickly takes over and sends a message to the lower links to raise the hoe. And if that doesn't reduce the compressive load enough it very quickly raises the hoe again and again - which can pin the the backhoe operator between the 3pt hoe and the back of the tractor seat quicker than you would believe. And then it simply keeps pushing......

It's not inevitable. On our John Deere 530 with the 3pt hoe when I felt the odd initial lurch of the draft control actuating (the backhoe seat suddenly rises up!) I actually had as long as maybe 3 or 4 seconds to figure out what was going on, swing a leg up and over, and bail out sideways.
A TLB doesn't have that danger.
rScotty

 

[Grandad4]

Not to take away from the informative safety information regarding 3 point backhoes, but to be clear, the OEM Kubota backhoe for the L4701 is the BH92, which uses a full 4 point subframe mounting arrangement generally similar to that on the L47, and not a 3 point mount. Best I can tell, Kubota no longer offers a 3 point backhoe for any of its current line of tractors.

 

[rScotty]

Not to take away from the informative safety information regarding 3 point backhoes, but to be clear, the OEM Kubota backhoe for the L4701 is the BH92, which uses a full 4 point subframe mounting arrangement generally similar to that on the L47, and not a 3 point mount. Best I can tell, Kubota no longer offers a 3 point backhoe for any of its current line of tractors.

Thanks Grandad4, I didn't know that, but I'm sure glad to hear it. Good for Kubota; IMHO, having a full subframe mount makes the necessary difference in backhoe safety.
Unfortunately, around here we see 3pt hoes on the used market all the time. I used one myself for over 20 years; it'll be nice when they are all done & gone.
Be safe,
rScotty

 

[avc8130]

Not to take away from the informative safety information regarding 3 point backhoes, but to be clear, the OEM Kubota backhoe for the L4701 is the BH92, which uses a full 4 point subframe mounting arrangement generally similar to that on the L47, and not a 3 point mount. Best I can tell, Kubota no longer offers a 3 point backhoe for any of its current line of tractors.

I don't know if it's that simple of a comparison. Sure, there is a subframe for the BH92, but to say "generally similar" might be a stretch. I highly doubt the arrangement is anywhere near as substantial as on the L47.

The best thing the OP can do is look at the specs. The loader on the L47 is MUCH stronger than the LA765? on the 4701. The backhoe on the L47 is MUCH more powerful than the BH92.

These 2 machines really do NOT compare. The OP should go look at them side by side at the dealer. They are 2 different machines for 2 drastically different applications. I will say this, the TLB plays "ag tractor" better than the 4701 plays "TLB"...assuming one can live with R4 tires.

 

[FatTire]

I don't know if it's that simple of a comparison. Sure, there is a subframe for the BH92, but to say "generally similar" might be a stretch. I highly doubt the arrangement is anywhere near as substantial as on the L47.

The best thing the OP can do is look at the specs. The loader on the L47 is MUCH stronger than the LA765? on the 4701. The backhoe on the L47 is MUCH more powerful than the BH92.

These 2 machines really do NOT compare. The OP should go look at them side by side at the dealer. They are 2 different machines for 2 drastically different applications. I will say this, the TLB plays "ag tractor" better than the 4701 plays "TLB"...assuming one can live with R4 tires.

I have the BH92 on the MX5100 and I agree with the above. The BH92 is a great tool to have around, but even beyond its mechanical capability, the need to move back and forth between seats when you are a mere INCHES from from something you want to pick up or slice into is a real killer. With my setup you can't even reach the throttle, without getting off the hoe and walking around to the tractor. That said, I've had days where I took care of something in a few minutes that would have required a piece of rental equipment otherwise and was very happy about it. And we are not near anyplace you can rent stuff.

 

[Grandad4]

I don't know if it's that simple of a comparison. Sure, there is a subframe for the BH92, but to say "generally similar" might be a stretch. I highly doubt the arrangement is anywhere near as substantial as on the L47.

The best thing the OP can do is look at the specs. The loader on the L47 is MUCH stronger than the LA765? on the 4701. The backhoe on the L47 is MUCH more powerful than the BH92.

These 2 machines really do NOT compare. The OP should go look at them side by side at the dealer. They are 2 different machines for 2 drastically different applications. I will say this, the TLB plays "ag tractor" better than the 4701 plays "TLB"...assuming one can live with R4 tires.

No need for "ruffled feathers" here, avc8130. Re-read what I said... was most definitely not making a comparison of the L4701 vs the L47. For $10 grand more, the L47 is and darn well should be a lot more machine.

But it would be unfair to the OP to leave the impression the L4701 had a 3 point backhoe, or something in that league. That's my only point. Peace.

 

[rScotty]

No need for "ruffled feathers" here, avc8130. Re-read what I said... was most definitely not making a comparison of the L4701 vs the L47. For $10 grand more, the L47 is and darn well should be a lot more machine.
But it would be unfair to the OP to leave the impression the L4701 had a 3 point backhoe, or something in that league. That's my only point. Peace.

The way I read the OP's original question he didn't specify any particular make of backhoe or loader; but he did notice that a Kubota tractor so equipped cost close to a Kubota TLB - and wanted to explore why. I think so far we are doing a pretty good job of that.
Only the OP knows if the main use is to be for farming, plowing, seeding, and such.....or for lifting, carrying, and digging.
rScotty

 

[Piston]

It's interesting that the TLB versions of what appears to be the same tractor setup differently, are so much more capable than the counterpart. Makes you wonder why they can't just offer the factory cab option on the TLB! Is the frame different on the two? Or is it just the loader mounting and loader frames that are a lot beefier?

It's pretty unanimous that the TLB versions are way more substantially built, and more capable (regarding lift capacities and ruggedness) than standard tractors of similar size, but what about comparing the TLB to the next larger frame sized standard tractor? Are the TLB's "that" much more capable, even in comparison with a larger sized tractor? For instance, what about comparing the L47 to something like the M7040? At least you can get a factory cab on the M7040 (but sadly no HST)

Rscotty,
Have you seen the aftermarket Curtis cab for the new M62? It looks "almost" factory, and I imagine it would fit the M59 as well?

This may be a consideration for the new L47, I imagine they have an aftermarket cab for it as well, which seems like the nicest aftermarket cabs I've ever seen, "almost" close to factory.

 

[mike69440]

It's interesting that the TLB versions of what appears to be the same tractor setup differently, are so much more capable than the counterpart. Makes you wonder why they can't just offer the factory cab option on the TLB! Is the frame different on the two? Or is it just the loader mounting and loader frames that are a lot beefier?

It's pretty unanimous that the TLB versions are way more substantially built, and more capable (regarding lift capacities and ruggedness) than standard tractors of similar size, but what about comparing the TLB to the next larger frame sized standard tractor? Are the TLB's "that" much more capable, even in comparison with a larger sized tractor? For instance, what about comparing the L47 to something like the M7040? At least you can get a factory cab on the M7040 (but sadly no HST)

Rscotty,
Have you seen the aftermarket Curtis cab for the new M62? It looks "almost" factory, and I imagine it would fit the M59 as well?

This may be a consideration for the new L47, I imagine they have an aftermarket cab for it as well, which seems like the nicest aftermarket cabs I've ever seen, "almost" close to factory.

The 7040 specs to a L45/L47, mabye even a bit better, but is a physically larger tractor, great for field work, but not so great in the woods or working in confined areas. The 3 Pt hitch and PTO of the M seines tractors put an L47 to shame. It think there would be more buyers for an M series tractor than the TLB, but i don't know how high either hold their resale value. However I'm told the BH92 is not as sturdy as the BT1000's. The Local service guyat the Kubota shop told me he has seen bent BH92's. I'm not sure what is available for backhoes on a cabbed tractor.

The L45/L47 start off with a Grand L. A tractor is an Engine connected to a Transmission, rear axle, a PTO and a hitch. Grand L is a good start.

The "Tractor" part of the TLB sits in a steel cradle that has the uprights for the loader and the framework to attach a BH. The cradle takes the place of the sub frame connectors of a regular tractor with a loader and backhoe.

You ask what is the difference?
You could take away the tractor part of the TLB, put in a hydraulic power pack and put the cradle on a set of dollys and still work the loader and the backhoe. The cradle is that strong and stiff.
By comparision, the subframe on a L4701 tractor uses the tractors casting to make everything rigid. The subframe spreads the load, while the cradle of the TLB carries the load, thus taking the stress off the tractor casting.

The L45/L47 also uses a M series type front axle to better handle the FEL. The FEL is quite rigid.

For an example, pound for pound, a Mahindra Max28 has the loader specs that compare to a TLB, being the strongest little CUT FEL and 3 Pt hitch wise on the market I know of, comparable to the B21/B26.

But in lifting +1,000 lbs a little off center, you can see the FEL frame of the my Max28 really twists to the point I will decide not to continue. I'm sure I could permanently bend the Max28's FEL digging and pushing stumps. A B21/B26 TLB would take the abuse way better. My L39 FEL lifting 3,000 Lbs (Not to full Height) distorts about 25% of what the Max28's FEL racks lifting 1,000Lbs. The L39/L45L47 loader frame attachment to the cradle has both a cross tube and full boxing of the cross tube. The uprights are a welded boxed steel section, not plates.
There is no quick attach to remove the Loader frame on a TLB. The cross tube near the bucket on the TLBs is heavier than the tube on a L4701.

The BH attachment on the TLBs is quiet sturdy. See my photo in this post of my L39 levitating trying to pull ledge. "Don't try this at home, Yeah I'm a professional"
You also get a sturdy 4 post FOP's on the TLBs vs. a 2 post ROPS.
The Oil Pumps on the TLB's are about 50% larger than a comparable HP tractor. Dual Premium Hydraulic filters, premium smooth controls, etc, adjustable pressure reliefs, etc. are all part of the package.

But underneath it all TLBs are pretty much the same tractor as the AG tractor they are based on, ruggedized for commercial use. Stuff painted yellow are the next step up.
A regular Farm AG tractor is better at farm work than a TLB, while a dedicated TLB is better at digging, loading, pushing, etc, but both can do either.
I'm lucky to have both.