Laying down weld on cutting surface,buckets,teeth

EdDekker · Feb 16, 2004

The web pages of the makers of the hardfacing electrode have a lot of good information. You can find links to these companies on Ernie Leimkuhler's Metal Links List. These web sites explain each hardfacing electrode, its uses and its requirements (such as a layer of an intermediate electrode between the hardface and the mild steel).

Another common electrode you can use for hardfacing is 312 stainless. While not comparable to the specialty hardfacing alloys 312 has good abrasion resistance, work hardens, is compatible with mild steel, is twice as strong, and is more available in small quantities.

moeh1 · Feb 19, 2004

Ed,
I don't have any 312 rod, but I happen to have some 316 - is that reasonably good also?

EdDekker · Mar 5, 2004

I would not expect good results hardfacing with E316.

The E316 is optimized for corrosion resistance. I have seen some recommendations to use it to weld cast iron but I have not seen it recommended to weld mild steel.

E312 is optimized for compatibility with dissimilar metals, high ferrite content and high tensile strength. E312 is therefore compatible with the mild steel (or even tool steel) surface of the implement being hardfaced.

The data sheets for E312 and E316 I checked do not list abrasion resistance and ultimate hardness. These are the values we are interested in for hardfacing.

The data sheets (asn the AWS specs) include the following:

E312
C 0.15 % max
Cr 28.0 to 32.0 %
Ni 8.0 to 10.5 %
Mo 0.75 % max
...
Tensile Strength 117,000psi typical 95,000psi min
Yeild Strength 97,000psi typical
Ferrite Number 25-80 typical

E316
C 0.08 % max (misprinted as 0.008% in some Hobart data sheets)
Cr 17.0 to 20.0 %
Ni 11.0 to 14.0 %
Mo 2.0 to 3.0%
...
Tensile Strength 91,000psi typical 75,000psi min
Yeild Strength 71,000psi typical
Ferrite Number 1-5 typical

E316 has a much lower carbon and Chromium content as well as a higher Nickel content than E312. The resulting Ferrite and carbide levels in the weld will be far lower with E316 than E312 resulting in a softer, less abrasion resistant, lower strength weld bead.

LandscapeMan · Mar 5, 2004

( The web pages of the makers of the hardfacing electrode have a lot of good information. You can find links to these companies on Ernie Leimkuhler's Metal Links List. These web sites explain each hardfacing electrode, its uses and its requirements (such as a layer of an intermediate electrode between the hardface and the mild steel).

Another common electrode you can use for hardfacing is 312 stainless. While not comparable to the specialty hardfacing alloys 312 has good abrasion resistance, work hardens, is compatible with mild steel, is twice as strong, and is more available in small quantities.
)

Thanks Ed,
I have been away working and just got back to checking this site. I went to the link you listed.
Wow! It would take me 2 lifetimes to read all of those.

If any one cares to comment this is what I have to work with.
A 200 amp AC ark welder. (220)(240?)
A 5500 watt generator 120/220(240?)
Very heavy duty Gehl 362 20" excavator bucket that I want to hardface.

I was able to get 4 new bolt on teeth (OEM) from Gehl for $16 a piece, so I don't have to build them up but may hardface them for future wear resistance.

Does anyone have a paticular electrode type?
size?

Amp range to use?

Do I need to or how do I determine type of steel used in bucket.

I have large amounts of a variety of size and type electrodes stored in airtight welding rod containers that I have from when I used to do repairs on my equipment.

Would I hurt anything by expermenting with some of those and see how they wear?

I have yet to find or make it to a welding supply store.
I guess I better start reading all those links.

Thanks,
Charlie

LandscapeMan · Mar 5, 2004

( I use Copper back up material too, it works pretty well, also use a torce to pre-heat any large heavy parts you awnt to weld or else it will end up cracking out (the weld) and possably leaving you're cutting edge worse than not doing anything.

anyhow use the copper along the bottom edge and weld right aginst it onto the steel edge. works great as long as you keep the bead arc nice & HOT. the rod should be near shot by the time you get to with in 2" of the end. nice & glowing! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

Mark,
OK I think I understand the use of the copper. Correct me if I am wrong.

The edge between my backhoe teeth is starting to wear in a slight crescent shape. I have new teeth that bolt directly onto the bucket. So I can build up the crescent shaped edge where it is worn between the teeth. Using the copper as a back up to form the edge? I assume the weld will not stick to the copper? I would also think I need to preheat the bucket with a torch along the edge where I am welding? It is heavy thick steel.

Thanks for all the reply's!!
Charlie

Lazy · Mar 5, 2004

Hi
for a hardfacing rod check this out

http://ktindustries.net/welect.html

charlie

LandscapeMan · Mar 6, 2004

( Hi
for a hardfacing rod check this out

http://ktindustries.net/welect.html

charlie )

Great link Thanks!

Any suggestion which of these is best with my equipment and application? Should I use the build up rod and then a harder finish on top?
HARDFACE BUILDUP

AC/DC+ (Electrode Positive)

Rockwell C 26-31

Application: Hardface buildup is commonly used for the buildup and overlaying of all ferrous metals subjected to moderate abrasion, sever impact and corrosion. Typical applications would include tractor rollers, sprockets, idlers, concrete mixer blades, bearing journals and other parts which require machinable weld deposits.

Procedure: Clean the weld area. Use AC or DC+ polarity. Preheating is not required, although heavier sections should be preheated to 200-300 degrees F. Maintain a medium arc length and use a weaving technique or stringer beads up to twice the diameter of the electrode. Avoid the buildup of heat at any one location on the base metal. Remove slag between passes and allow the base metal to air cool. If severe abrasion is encountered a final pass of Harface severe abrasion should be considered.

Characteristics: Weld deposits are stong and tough, however with an average hardness of RC26-31, they do not remain machinable.

Availabile Diameter and Recommended operating ranges:

Dia Amps AC or DC+
5/32" 110-170

-----------------------

HARDFACE -SEVERE ABRASION, CONSIDERABLE IMPACT

AC/DC+ (Electrode Positive)

Rockwell C 58-62

Application: Our most popular hardsurfacing electrode used for sever abrasion and considerable impact. Weld deposits have a martensitic structure that resists wear even in metal-to-metal mild steel contact. This hardface is most commonly used on plowshares, cultivator shoes, bucket teeth and lips, well drilling bits, cement mixers blades, shovels tracks and screw conveyors.

Procedure: Use AC or DC+. Preheating is generally not required. Using the weaving technique and keeping a short arc length, deposit 1/4” maximum. If more than two passes will be required, it is suggested that a “padding layer” of K-T hardface buildup be used prior to depositing hardface sever abrasion.

Characteristics: When used in a flat and horizontal positions, this electrode will exhibit a stable arc and produce weld deposits that are very smooth and finely rippled. Hardness as deposited: RC58-62.

Availabile Diameter and Recommended operating ranges:

Dia Amps AC or DC+
1/8" 110-130
5/32" 140-170
3/16" 180-210

-----------------------

HARDFACE-SEVERE ABRASION LIGHT IMPACT

AC/DC+ (Electrode Positive)

Rockwell C 62-65

Application: Hardfacing electrode is used for severe abrasion, light impact and corrosion resistance. This electrode produces an extremely hard martensite-structure weld deposit which is not machinable in the “as-welded” condition. Is commonly used on mill hammers, bucket teeth, valve seats, mixers, crusher rolls, tamper rollers and other mild steel, carbon or alloy steels as weel as manganese steels.

Procedure: Use AC or DC+. Pre heating is not required except on alloy steels. Using a short gap and a weaving technique, deposit two layers. If more than two passes are required, use Hardface buildup to provide a padding layer.

Characteristics: This hardface electrode will lay down a smooth, corrosion resistant weld deposit which will remain extremely hard even at elevated temperatures. Hardness as deposited: RC62-65

Availabile Diameter and Recommended operating ranges:

Dia Amps AC or DC+
5/32" 140-170

-----------------------

HARDFACE-SEVERE ABRASION HEAVY IMPACT

AC/DC+ (Electrode Positive)

Rockwell C 50-55 (after workhardening)

Application: Hardsurfacing overlay electrode used for the fabrication and build up of high manganese and alloy steels which are subjected to heavy and severe abrasion. This electrode is commonly used for repairing railroad switches, frogs and tracks, bucket teeth and lips, rock crushers, mill hammers and bulldozer parts.

Procedure: When the base metal of 13% manganese steel is hardended, cut-off the hardened zone before welding.

Welding should be done at the lowest possible temp. Maintain a short to medium arc length using a slight weaving technique to make the deposit smooth. Do not preheat manganese steels. Do not overheat the base metal. Peening is recommended to relieve stress.

Characteristics: Weld deposits have an austenitic structure and work harden although remaining exteremely ductile. Weld deposits are machinable and forgeable.

Availabile Diameter and Recommended operating ranges:

Dia Amps AC or DC+
5/32" 125-190

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SPIKER · Mar 7, 2004

Landscape man seems like you found the site with the info!

as or the copper backer, yes the weld won't stick to it. clamp it on so you can have a straight weld after you start laying bead. it works when you have a gap that has to be filled too.

as for the other info seem syou found it really well!

I would preheat any big heavy parts if possable then just after welding up the part cover it with sand to let the heat disapate slowly. this will keep the unit from becomming brittle and stop cracks if you hit a rock with the tooth.

hope that helps.

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

LandscapeMan · Mar 7, 2004

(
as or the copper backer, yes the weld won't stick to it. clamp it on so you can have a straight weld after you start laying bead. it works when you have a gap that has to be filled too.

I would preheat any big heavy parts if possable then just after welding up the part cover it with sand to let the heat disapate slowly. this will keep the unit from becomming brittle and stop cracks if you hit a rock with the tooth.

hope that helps.

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif )

Thanks Mark,

That is a great help! I will update once I get to it.
Thanks,
Charlie

LandscapeMan · Jan 8, 2005

Hi guys,
I know it has been forever.
But I want to thank everyone for all the help!!

My next project is the front dozer blade, on which I will past a question shortly

This is an update on armoring and hardfacing my excavator that I did last winter:

Well I had pictures of the whole process, but they were on my laptop when it crashed. I do have a backup but I have to go up to my brothers in NY to restore. But I will go out to my property tommorow and take some pictures of the finished bucket. And post them once I figure out how to do that.

Anyway: Due to the fact that I spent all of last winter digging thru sand and stone whilst installing and hardening the roads on my 5 acres in Marriottsville Md. I wore down the outside bottom heel of my bucket to the point that it was starting to dimple inside the floor of the bucket.

Hense, I bought a batch of 3 or 4" steel flat stock. Cut it in sections to match the bottom outside wear strips on the existing bucket. Welded ( 220 amp Lincoln AC stick welder) one end to the bucket. Then using heat and a mall. Shaped and kept tacking in place as I bent it to fit the existing wear strips. So it about doubled the original steel thickness on the bottom of the bucket.

I then welded/added plates on the outside/side that followed the outline of the bucket. I then went to a welding shop that handles big excavators and
bought hardened steel and made up some side cutters.

I installed a new set of factory teeth.

I the spent days extensivly hardfacing ( 140 amps if I recall) the bottom, sideplates, all leading edges, side cutters and built up cutting edge between teeth. Using various cross hatch patterns.
I used 10 lbs of hardfacing rod from Boyhler Theyisen (wrong spelling)
And had several conversations with there welding expert on correct application etc. I think the hardfacing rod set me back $140.00 supposed to be the best etc. etc.

I know I went overkill on the hardfacing. But I am right back into the same sand and gravel. And I swear the bucket, teath, hardfacing has not shown any signs of wear. As a new 2' bucket is in the neighorhood of 1K. ( I just priced a 12" heavy duty bucket. ( $943 plus shipping plus 6% steel surcharge)
I think the work on my bucket was well worth the time and money.

Any way I will try to get the pics taken and posted ASAP

Charlie