LED Lighting Experience?

   / LED Lighting Experience? #1  

daveinnh

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
326
Location
Hillsboro, NH
Tractor
Kubota L4310
We have a pole barn about 300 ft. from our house that will have one bay converted into a horse bay. Rather than run power out that far (with concern for voltage drop) I saw that Nothern Tool sells Buyers-brand LED lights for ~ $40/EA.

Water may be from a nearby dug well.

Any experience or thoughts? ( we have 12V RV lights in our goat barn - but they seem to use some power)
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #2  
LED's are the way to go. We sell LED stage lights for bands and they are awesome. i leave 4 of them on 24hrs a day as a selling point. They will last up to 100,000 hrs, have no heat and draw very little power. I saw some LED replacement flood lights at ace hardware the other day, they are a little pricey at $40 each but will pay for them selves quick.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #3  
I don't know about that brand in particular, but I had an LED floodlight in my carport that had a solar panel. Frankly, it stunk. That was almost 10 years ago though and I am sure they are much better.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #4  
I have some screw in 110v LED replacement bulbs that were less than stellar. I got two different low power ones, maybe 25 watts worth of light. They gave off just enough for what I wanted but the power converter inside the base went on one of them as well as three higher output ones I had in a street lamp. They weren't name brand so they were pretty cheap. I see Lowes stocks them now, Silvania I think, but the price is just too high to justify them.

LED's themselves are very robust. I wouldn't think twice about using them in a 12 volt application. I think I would look into a solar charger/ 12 volt battery system.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #5  
A small solar cell, 12V gel battery and some 12V LEDs and you are set.

The higher the LED "voltage" the LOWER the efficiency advantage!

LEDs operate at 3.2-3.8VDC, that is ALL. You can wire them in series to handle moderate voltages up to about 24V but after that you NEED a voltage reducer (controller) to keep the amperage and voltage within design limits for each LED element.

12V LEDs are VERY efficient, reasonabally inexpensive from various RV and trailer supply houses and very easy to SAFELY wire and control. A single 10A fuse would cover more lights than most could afford or would want.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #6  
I've been playing with LED's for years and I just finished an LED street light that is battery operated. It's fun. It throws as much light as a typical street light but you can walk around with it.

A typical Led light can throw out the same lumens as a incandescent light at a fraction of the power.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #7  
LEDs operate at 3.2-3.8VDC, that is ALL. .

That is generally true for white LEDs, but some LEDs can operate on much lower voltages, 1.5V for example.....

As for the 110V commercal lamp replacement LEDs- be aware that some of them will die an early death if operated on an invertor. The waveform of most invertors isn't a sine wave and the electronics in the LED package perhaps wasn't designed to operate on anything else.

I'd go with a 12v system for the lighting in the barn. Easy to do and relatively inexpensive.
 
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   / LED Lighting Experience? #10  
I'm with Egon. For 300 feet of wire, even 10/3 NMW, you can't go wrong. Run some low voltage (actually its extra low voltage) for telephone, control circuits as well.
Sooner or later someone will want to run a 110v something up there just because they don't have one that is battery powered....Even if its just a charger for a drill.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #11  
is it true that LED does not attract bugs like incandescent?
:confused:
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #12  
is it true that LED does not attract bugs like incandescent?
:confused:

bugs are attracted by certain wavelengths of light. if the source is putting out wavelengths that are of interest to the bugs, they will fly to it. regardless of what is putting out the light (incandescent, LED, candle flame, HID, CFL) so the only reason why LED would attract less bugs is it is a different wavelength (a less desirable one) which it may or maynot be.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #13  
LED lighting is not mastered to the point of mass commercialization yet. The problem being consistent voltage levels and with the newer more powerful, heat is still a major factor. Voltage levels for a typical white/bluish color LED's typical need 3 to 3.6 volts DC and this range will still make a huge diffierference in light output. Typically with this range from my experience is that will get less than half the light output at 3 volts than you will at 3.6 volts, this is why if your power supply and all LED's have one is the critical part of the puzzle. Once you introduce this power supply into the mix it becomes another heat source on top of the LED itself in the package, now put this in a fixture and you have to allow for cooling as electronics do not like heat. If the supply is not regulated (locked at a certain voltage level) then your voltage will swing up or down with the incoming power which is not uncommon in most areas. Sorry to babble but thought some may be interested in a vague insight into LED lighting compared to incandestant lighting which is much much simpler (typical incandesant lights are 5% light and 95% heat) and a lot less efficient.

Steve
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #14  
LED lighting is not mastered to the point of mass commercialization yet. The problem being consistent voltage levels and with the newer more powerful, heat is still a major factor. Voltage levels for a typical white/bluish color LED's typical need 3 to 3.6 volts DC and this range will still make a huge diffierference in light output. Typically with this range from my experience is that will get less than half the light output at 3 volts than you will at 3.6 volts, this is why if your power supply and all LED's have one is the critical part of the puzzle. Once you introduce this power supply into the mix it becomes another heat source on top of the LED itself in the package, now put this in a fixture and you have to allow for cooling as electronics do not like heat. If the supply is not regulated (locked at a certain voltage level) then your voltage will swing up or down with the incoming power which is not uncommon in most areas. Sorry to babble but thought some may be interested in a vague insight into LED lighting compared to incandestant lighting which is much much simpler (typical incandesant lights are 5% light and 95% heat) and a lot less efficient.

Steve
Steve,
I have to disagree with you, I've got led lights that run 24hrs a day 7 days a week some have been on for more than 2 years. I think the where the problem is in some lights is form the manufacture. I believe a lot of company are putting out cheep led lights. they use fewer led's and bump the voltage to them to make them bright. this is one of the lights we leave on 24/7, not cheep at $139 but they put out some light and last a long time.LEDsplash? 200B | CHAUVET Lighting
now i know this is not what the op needs for his shed but i'm just saying that they do make quality led lights.
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #15  
Let me take a shot at some LED basics.

Leds are diodes, and as such one has to think in currents and not voltages. At a given current, a given LED will put out a certain amount of light. At that current, the voltage drop across the led will change as the temperature of the LED changes. If you put a voltage across a LED and slowly increase it, there will be a point where the current through the LED will increase exponentially. The heat dissipated by the LED also increases with the current.

Small LEDs (currents of 50 mA or less) can often use a simple dropping resistor. This lets you put a range of voltage on there, such as the range often seen from a lead acid battery. The intensity of the led will vary a bit, but from a practical point of view it works. The efficiency is low due to the energy lost in the dropping resistor, but from a practical point of view the entire system draws so little power that the cost savings make it worth it.

Larger LEDs, such as the 1 watt ones, need about a third of an amp. While you can use a dropping resistor, the losses in the resistor start to be a problem. The voltage drop on a LED depends on what the material is, which is also what determines the color of the LED. While and blue LEDs tend to have about 3.3 Volts of drop (with the afore mentioned changes with temperature). Green is about 2V, red is about 1.4 volts.

So with the larger LEDs, electronic circuits are used to create a constant current power supply. There are lots of chips to do this available at reasonable costs, but this is not a DIY project. The chips typically take an input voltage, say from 6 to 30 volts, and output a constant current to drive the LEDs. LEDs are often put in series. For example, you could put 2 or 3 white LEDs in series and run them off of 14 volts. I've used 2 LEDs in series for battery stuff so everything can work all the way down to 11 volts. The key concept here is a constant current so you don't care about the changes in LED voltage with temperature, and the current through the LEDs does not change with the input voltage to the driving circuit.

Driving LEDs from AC (like house voltages) has the same problem as the compact fluorescence. You have to build a power supply into the fixture, and the electronics doesn't like all the trapped heat. Driving LEDs from a DC source of less than 30 volts is much easier since there is just the little driver chip.

The lifetime of LEDs is somewhat subjective. You plot the light output vs. time. At some threshold, often 70% of initial output, you declare the LED to be dead. This number is out in the 100,000 hour range for most LEDs. The problem, and this is why LED lighting is having a hard time taking off, is you have to get rid of the heat the LED makes. Heat is the # one killer of all electronic devices. For every 10 degrees C (18 degrees F) rise in temperature, the LED life is cut in half (this is a rule of thumb so don't flame me here). Getting rid of heat is expensive since it require a metal heatsink, and the means for thermally connecting the LED to the heatsink are often expensive to do from a manufacturing process perspective. So a poor manufacture can cut corners here, run the LED hot, and get 10,000 hours before the LED burns out. Put a 1 year warranty on it and they are good to go. The same poor manufacturer can run the LED at a higher current for more light output, but that higher current means higher temperatures and less life.

LEDs light systems powered by AC have the double whammy of getting rid of both the heat from the LED and from the electronics, often in a form factor and space designed for incandescent such as a ceiling can. If you look at a lot of the commercial LED fixtures (not retrofits for the standard type A "light bulb") you'll see that the rear of them is often a big finned heat sink.

As for efficiency, the design of the LED and the fixture play a role here. Another rule of thumb is that 1 watt of LED is about the same amount of light as 5 watts of incandescent. So a 1 watt LED is about like a long life night light bulb. But to get the 1 watt into the led, the total power consumption (led _plus_ the circuitry) might be in the 1.1 to 1.4 watt range. LEDs in series are popular because you only path the extra power penalty for the constant current supply once even if you're driving a bunch of LEDs.

So LEDs are current devices, and either simple resistors or constant current electronics make them work with constant (or near constant) voltage sources. Heat is the dominant factor in LED life. Efficiency is pretty good, but there is a small price to pay for the electronics. Due to the long life of a correctly engineered LED, unscrupulous or inexperienced manufacturers can scrimp on cost and still have a device with 5x the lifetime of an incandescent light. And in some cases, this might be an OK trade off (like a flashlight).

Finally, LEDs and the electronic driver circuits are semiconductors and as such are very sensitive to voltage spikes. In theory, someone making such a device knows this and will put in spike protection. In practice, for AC stuff be sure you have a whole house surge protector. For DC operated units, try to use a spike protector on the power source or figure out (and this can be impossible) if the manufacturer has included the protection in their LED lights.

So there's some condensed background. The OP asked about LED lights. Done right, they are lower current and longer life and a win. They can save money on installations due to smaller wire sizes needed, and cost less to operate due to lower power - higher efficiency. Drawback is higher initial cost. If you can get something that's not a "light bulb retrofit" package, it has a better chance of being done right.

Another long post, hope it helps....

Pete
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #16  
Let me take a shot at some LED basics.

Leds are diodes, and as such one has to think in currents and not voltages. At a given current, a given LED will put out a certain amount of light. At that current, the voltage drop across the led will change as the temperature of the LED changes. If you put a voltage across a LED and slowly increase it, there will be a point where the current through the LED will increase exponentially. The heat dissipated by the LED also increases with the current.

........



Another long post, hope it helps....

Pete



Thanks Pete, Your better at explaining than I.

Brian, I can't explain myself well enough a lot of times but my point is that at $139 this is not going to replace incandescent or compacts for a very long time, yes it is more efficient and longer lasting but the public will never go for it at that price. There is going to be some crossover point where it becomes attractive enough to buy unless Uncle Sam steps in and bans incandescents which is already starting to happen.


Steve
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #17  
LVD or Induction Lamps - long life with 5 year warranty, very high efficiency - better than LED or compact fluorescent, start at -40ー F, but pricey at $50 (40W with built in ballast). Six bare 40 watt bulbs on the ceiling light up a 24 x 32 x 13 barn quite well.

Ken
 
   / LED Lighting Experience? #18  
Great information - I have been wondering what to consider when installing these lights and so far have only heard the good without much of the bad or the ugly. Now I feel like I can design and build an LED installation with a reasonable hope of getting what I wanted and not being disappointed with the results. Thanks guys.

Jim
 

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