Egon
Epic Contributor
You can do that with ground engaging equipment engaged?
Lengevity and reliability of various transmission types
- Thread starter Specop_007
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You can do that with ground engaging equipment engaged?
Soundguy
Old Timer
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- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
HUGE HUGE difference in 'hydrostatic' and 'torque converter driven' machines.
your car with an auto trans is not a hydrostat... see the difference.
lots of heavy equipmetn is torque converter driven.. I've sure you can find some with variable swash palte steups.. or hyd pump feeding hyd motors.. etc..
soundguy
jenkinsph
Super Star Member
not sure what you meant about hydrostat..... see the difference.
2TonCommon
Member
Hydrostatic drives are designed around what's called a swashplate. They are a very simple, yet tough design, with very little surface contact between their respective moving parts.. because everything runs in an oil bath.
They do create more of a heat load than a gearbox transmission, but in a well designed HST system (most are) that's reasonably maintained they should last a very Looooong time!
While gearboxes have been around, well.... forever. HST's have got decades of proven service behind them in lot's of applications too.
And gears, main shafts, needle bearings, ball bearings and synchros do wear; especially if they're neglected or allowed to run low on oil. Oh, and there is that whole "Let's have fun changing the clutch" part of running with a gearbox.
I'm in no way down on gearbox drive vehicles at all, been working on em' for many years. It's just that HST has a lot going for it.
Here's a link to some additional info on HST
FLUID POWER SAFETY INSTITUTE™ - Safety Alert #30
They do create more of a heat load than a gearbox transmission, but in a well designed HST system (most are) that's reasonably maintained they should last a very Looooong time!
While gearboxes have been around, well.... forever. HST's have got decades of proven service behind them in lot's of applications too.
And gears, main shafts, needle bearings, ball bearings and synchros do wear; especially if they're neglected or allowed to run low on oil. Oh, and there is that whole "Let's have fun changing the clutch" part of running with a gearbox.
I'm in no way down on gearbox drive vehicles at all, been working on em' for many years. It's just that HST has a lot going for it.
Here's a link to some additional info on HST
FLUID POWER SAFETY INSTITUTE™ - Safety Alert #30
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 51,575
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
there is a world of difference in a hydrostat tranny, and an automatic tranny that has a full gear setup and a torque converter.
soundguy
jenkinsph
Super Star Member
I may not be the smartest thing around but I am familiar with most of these transmission setups. Your assumption that I did not know the difference or that others may not know the difference is more the issue.
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
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- 51,575
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- Central florida
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- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
I didn't assume anything.. and if you would take the time to read thru the archives.. there are MANY that have not known that a hst is not an automatic tranny.. they both work on different principles.. other than you push a pedal and the machine moves... not everybody is an engineer, mechanic.. or the type that reads the manual and knows how each system in their tractor specifically operates. They are fine with ' I pull the lever under the seat up, and the 3pt comes up'.. while they have some basic notion there are hyds at play under there.. the specifics of the workings aren't as important to some.. that's why I made my comment to point out the distinction.. for those that 'don't know'. If you aren't in that crowd.. the info or comment wasn't intended for you.
I could break into a long discussion on how a pulse width modulator works.. or why transient harmonic distortion is bad... for the EE's in the group.. it would be boring.. thus.. not meant for them...
Sounds like you are hedging or looking for a reason to try and get your feathers ruffled, when there was no intent on my part to do so?????
soundguy
jenkinsph
Super Star Member
Soundguy,
Peace then
You are right about the electronics too, now that I am retired from broadcast engineering I try not to engage in conversations about it (electronics). My interest was always audio and acoustics though but broadcast and communications paid the bills. Now I am burned out on most of it, sorry to say.
Peace then
You are right about the electronics too, now that I am retired from broadcast engineering I try not to engage in conversations about it (electronics). My interest was always audio and acoustics though but broadcast and communications paid the bills. Now I am burned out on most of it, sorry to say.
Chilly807
Elite Member
My vote goes to the gear drive side. I plan on keeping mine 'til they use it to bury me. Or at least spread the ashes with, can't say I like the thought of that cold, hard ground...
Anyway.. in my opinion the gear drives will outperform and outlast the HST's in hard everyday use with an experienced operator.
If you or your significant other have trouble with legs, knees, ankles, or simply have a tough time figuring out a clutch (no shame in that either) then save yourself some headaches and repair bills and get the HST.
Again in my opinion, HST is well suited to frequent loader work, various users cleaning out horse barns, etc. If mine was going to be used by a lot of different folks with little or no tractor experience, I'd have bought the HST.
As it is, both the Missus and I have years of standard shift experience. Unless we seriously abuse the tractor, it should last us forever and a day.
Chilly
Anyway.. in my opinion the gear drives will outperform and outlast the HST's in hard everyday use with an experienced operator.
If you or your significant other have trouble with legs, knees, ankles, or simply have a tough time figuring out a clutch (no shame in that either) then save yourself some headaches and repair bills and get the HST.
Again in my opinion, HST is well suited to frequent loader work, various users cleaning out horse barns, etc. If mine was going to be used by a lot of different folks with little or no tractor experience, I'd have bought the HST.
As it is, both the Missus and I have years of standard shift experience. Unless we seriously abuse the tractor, it should last us forever and a day.
Chilly
crashz
Veteran Member
Not all is "peaches and cream" on the gear shift side in my eyes.
My machine has a collar shift (like the 790) and dual stage clutch. Pretty nice, but I can feel the wear in the drive clutch verses the PTO clutch. The result is an increasingly difficult to shift PTO. Now I still have quite a bit of adjustment left, which I assume (have not visually inspected the clutch) I have at least some clutch lining left on the drive clutch. If I decide to keep running it the way it is, eventually I have to decide if I want the PTO always turning or allow the clutch to start to slip. Fortunately it only sees on average about 25 hrs per year, but eventually, I'll be splitting the tractor.
I have 1000 hrs on my machine. Previous owner used it to plow a driveway and I know his kids and grand kids probably rode the clutch a lot. I know many people get much more hours on a clutch that this, but it should be considered.
The downside to gear shift transmssions that I see, besides the tractor type of use, operator discomfort, lack of productivity and risk of damage with inexperienced operators is:
- Dual stage clutches are expensive. I've yet to see one for my model under $1000. I would have to do my own work, but that factors into the next tractor purchase.
- You are bound to have at least some tire slip with a gear transmission when digging into a large pile with the loader. Or clutch slip. Or both. Either way something is wearing. Not so with HST.
- Inevitably I forget something after a few trips loading a truck from a pile. Either I don't clutch completely or stop completely, and therefore grind a gear or two. By the sound, I'm proabably doing more damage once or twice a year than an HST would see in many years. In my weak defense, I'm used to the fast operation of a commercial backhoe or wheel loader. When I go fast my brain misses a few steps.
- A big rotary mower will act as a large flywheel and continue to "drive" the my tractor through the PTO. Creeps me out sometimes.
- The "stick and grab" feel of the PTO clutch vs the drive clutch (slip to grab) feeling is not consistant and when you mentally try to adjust for that, something is always started hard.
- While not related to transmission longevity, the more choppy and less controlled operation of the gear shift machine will ultimately add more stress to the loader when digging inot anything more than loose soil.
- We assume that gear transmissions built today are just as robust and bulletproof as those made 50 years ago. Can we really make that assumption? With today's "service life" designs, I feel that a new tractor, be it gear, shuttle, or HST will be built to a quality level that should yeild XXXX amount of hours based upon the manufacture's design and expected design life.
Just my 2 cents.
My machine has a collar shift (like the 790) and dual stage clutch. Pretty nice, but I can feel the wear in the drive clutch verses the PTO clutch. The result is an increasingly difficult to shift PTO. Now I still have quite a bit of adjustment left, which I assume (have not visually inspected the clutch) I have at least some clutch lining left on the drive clutch. If I decide to keep running it the way it is, eventually I have to decide if I want the PTO always turning or allow the clutch to start to slip. Fortunately it only sees on average about 25 hrs per year, but eventually, I'll be splitting the tractor.
I have 1000 hrs on my machine. Previous owner used it to plow a driveway and I know his kids and grand kids probably rode the clutch a lot. I know many people get much more hours on a clutch that this, but it should be considered.
The downside to gear shift transmssions that I see, besides the tractor type of use, operator discomfort, lack of productivity and risk of damage with inexperienced operators is:
- Dual stage clutches are expensive. I've yet to see one for my model under $1000. I would have to do my own work, but that factors into the next tractor purchase.
- You are bound to have at least some tire slip with a gear transmission when digging into a large pile with the loader. Or clutch slip. Or both. Either way something is wearing. Not so with HST.
- Inevitably I forget something after a few trips loading a truck from a pile. Either I don't clutch completely or stop completely, and therefore grind a gear or two. By the sound, I'm proabably doing more damage once or twice a year than an HST would see in many years. In my weak defense, I'm used to the fast operation of a commercial backhoe or wheel loader. When I go fast my brain misses a few steps.
- A big rotary mower will act as a large flywheel and continue to "drive" the my tractor through the PTO. Creeps me out sometimes.
- The "stick and grab" feel of the PTO clutch vs the drive clutch (slip to grab) feeling is not consistant and when you mentally try to adjust for that, something is always started hard.
- While not related to transmission longevity, the more choppy and less controlled operation of the gear shift machine will ultimately add more stress to the loader when digging inot anything more than loose soil.
- We assume that gear transmissions built today are just as robust and bulletproof as those made 50 years ago. Can we really make that assumption? With today's "service life" designs, I feel that a new tractor, be it gear, shuttle, or HST will be built to a quality level that should yeild XXXX amount of hours based upon the manufacture's design and expected design life.
Just my 2 cents.
