Liability....WHAT liability?

[dave1949]

There have been numerous recalls and not just off brands...

I really think the unfortunate truth is tire quality varies greatly as does the quality of stems.

Several friends are mechanics in Germany and they were here for a visit... they commented on the number or tire casings on the side of the road as they were traveling the Southwest.

Many tires sold here can't be sold their because speed ratings come into play... stock of the lot cars there are driven 125 mph or faster on the German autobahns...

In Germany, the speed rating of the tire has to match the vehicle's speed capability to be legal.

 

[slowzuki]

I run all used tires about 40,000 miles per year. We have a cool climate and the UV isn't like the southern US. I'm always blown away by the shrivelled dashes in southern US cars, just doesn't happen here. Old tires in direct sunlight take about 25-30 years to obviously dry rot here. In the shade/inside more like 30-40 years.

I've never had a problem towing with old used tires that are properly inflated and not overloaded. I have had a terrible time with ST rated trailer tires going to pieces when used anywhere close to their rating.

I've also had some trouble tires that have got hot, ie underinflated under high load or run until flat on a mild leak in summer etc. May as well throw them out because the liner rubber inside separates from the carcass. Don't know exactly what else breaks down but the tire will not last long after that if it can even be aired up.

 

[batwing]

I run all used tires about 40,000 miles per year. We have a cool climate and the UV isn't like the southern US. I'm always blown away by the shrivelled dashes in southern US cars, just doesn't happen here. Old tires in direct sunlight take about 25-30 years to obviously dry rot here. In the shade/inside more like 30-40 years.

I've never had a problem towing with old used tires that are properly inflated and not overloaded. I have had a terrible time with ST rated trailer tires going to pieces when used anywhere close to their rating.

I've also had some trouble tires that have got hot, ie underinflated under high load or run until flat on a mild leak in summer etc. May as well throw them out because the liner rubber inside separates from the carcass. Don't know exactly what else breaks down but the tire will not last long after that if it can even be aired up.

Totally agree, unless they show cracks I also do not worry about it, last pickup was a 1998, I put three new tires and the original spare on in 2008 still going good last year when I sold the truck.

 

[My Hoe]

Around here tire stores will not even touch a tire more than 6 years old. They are a ticking time bomb after that and that's where the Liability comes in.

I deal with over 200 tires on the equipment I maintain. I agree with the tire experts. I would not touch it either.

Chris

WARNNING: Long Post:
This is a long post. For those that don't like reading long posts, please don't insult me about it's length; rather, please be nice and just skip it--and, without the snarky commentary, thank you. Complex issues sometimes require a lot of...words. Besides, do you really want to earn another "Captain Obvious" badge, for pointing out the, well, obvious? Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Chris is correct, and you don't need my law degree to prove it (I don't do law anymore--and I was a defense attorney, btw--found out I didn't like working with most lawyers). :laughing: Not that there's anything wrong with a good lawyer, defense or plaintiff's, if one has been truly wronged, or wrongly accused. After all, please remember that, when you buy auto insurance (or any insurance, for that matter--and no, I've never sold insurance) one of the benefits you do get is free legal representation--at least up until the limits of the policy are reached. If you stop and think about it, a free lawyer makes insurance an even better deal. And I will get the KTAC insurance, if I can, when I buy my Kubota.

Does it apply to used Kubotas?
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Anyway, to answer the OP's question of "Liability...WHAT Liability?", here is the story of a college student, named "Andy," killed by an out-of-date tire, separating. Scroll down to the section entitled "20/20 Expose on Aged Tires Sold as New," if you "tire" (pun intended) of the rest of the FACTS:

Aged Tires Accident Injury Lawsuits
Aged Tires Accident Injury Lawsuits Injury, Deaths | Old Tires, Wal-Mart, Sears

From my knowledge of the collector car industry (and boating industries) I know this to be true: tires can look GREAT at 20+ years old (if stored inside) and come apart, without notice.

While I don't see it in the article cited above, I seem to remember that the tire that contributed to "Andy's" death (in the 20/20 expose article) was 12 (TWELVE!) years old, when it was sold, as "new," to Andy's father--by SEARS.

Funnily enough (and not to be insensitive), not long after this story broke, I had my g.f.'s Outback's tires (OEM, at 112,000 miles, while the car was on it's third engine--don't even get me started--female driven, slushbox car, i.e., babied, with 3,000 mile O/F changes, by yours truly) at the Sears store.

The OEM Michelein tires had 50% tread depth left (at 112,000 miles! Again, female owned/driven), were only FIVE years old, but had fairly MASSIVE cracks running ALL the way around the tires, down inside the tread grooves. Sidewalls looked fine.

I took them to a multi-brand tire store, saying that the law guaranteed them to be good for six years (or at least Michelin did--can't remember which) and the manager said "No WAY is Michelin going to warranty those tires."

I said "But they've got 50% of their tread left, and they're cracked so unsafely, your yourself said you wouldn't let your wife drive on them."

He didn't care. Maybe because didn't sell them to me, new, even though he was a Michelin dealer. Basically, I was told to **** off.

I drove 1/2 mile down the road, to the Sears store, who ALSO did NOT sell me the OEM tires, on our one-owner Outback.

I explained my dilemma: 50% tread left with only 5 years since purchase of the car--i.e., we had one year left on a six year "guaranteed" lifespan of the tires.

Guess what? I was told to come back, after a manager reviewed it, which I did.

And they put four new Michelin's on, and charged me HALF PRICE, reflective of the 50% tread life left (at 112,000 miles!). Of course, they charged me full price for mounting and balancing.

But remember when I said this story was "funny," given that the 20/20 expose on Sears (and other companies) selling OLD TIRES as new ones, had just been in the news, a year or so ago?

I checked the date codes on the tires, as they brought them up from their basement storage--AND ONE OF THEM WAS FOUR YEARS OLD ALREADY!

I bitched, they put a one year old tire on (or less?) instead, and that was it (except for a bad balance job, which never got addressed, as I took the car down for repairs, which got delayed).

But the crazy thing is, none of the managers or workers claimed to have even KNOWN of the scandal, exposed by 20/20, of Sears selling (I believe) TWELVE YEAR OLD TIRES, that contributed to "Andy's" death.

In other words, by attempting to put a "brand new," four-year old tire on my car, even AFTER I told them about the 20/20 expose, and even AFTER they were warrantying my 5 (FIVE!) y.o. tires, based on their rotting/cracking-before-SIX-YEAR-tread-life-guarantee, THEY ALMOST MADE THE SAME MISTAKE AS GOT SEARS IN THE NEWS, and KILLED TWO KIDS, in the first place!

To review: SEARS attempted to replace my FIVE-year old tires with a FOUR-year old tire--selling it as "brand new"--after being the subject of an expose on fatalities caused by SEARS selling old tires!

So, to answer the OP's question about " Liability....WHAT liability?"--it's in the fact that rubber rots, and if they're older than six years old, they should be removed from the road--and I can't swear, but I believe it's the law, not to sell them if they're over six years old. So, as was said by others, if the tire shop broke it down, they had knowledge (had they bothered to look, which they apparently did) that the tire was 14 years old.

If that 14 year old tire had caused the death of anyone, let alone a loved one or friend, and that shop could have prevented it, many people would attempt to sue the "deep pockets," and those "deep pockets/defendants" would have "cross-claimed" against the tire shop, in an attempt to avoid, or share, the damages. That tire shop was smart.

And how would you have felt, if that tire had caused an accident that hurt or killed someone, even if you had no prior knowledge of this potential failure mode? I'm guessing you would have felt pretty bad about it..., nevertheless.

Does this liability suck, at times? Sure it does. Like when I want to buy "take-offs" (tires taken in, in decent shape, by tire dealers, for recycling), that I want to use on off-road use vehicles only, on low-speed, gravel roads, on an Island near the Canadian border, with no LEO's unless they're called in, by boat. This Island is FILLED with unlicensed, uninspected, UNINSURED cars, driven by underage drivers [as in 10 year olds and up--I kid you not--I learned when I was eight years old]. So yeah, our litigious society sucks. But I did find a shop that would sell me some tires, for a trailer I use up there, some 10 years ago. The trailer goes behind my quad, or my van, at about 15 miles per hour, tops. They even mounted them for me.

Bottom Line: If you want a good answer, ask a pilot--he probably knows the truth--as Chris did, here. (Although I met a "heavy" airline pilot that didn't know his *** from his elbow, and even watched him screw a wood screw into his mult-thousand dollar, carbon fiber bicycle. So I guess not all pilots can be taken at face value).

But once again, Diamondpilot/Chris delivers. I never "tire" of his posts, because he knows his stuff. :thumbsup:

Ciao.

My Hoe

 

[ultrarunner]

It would be helpful if tire shops posted this policy... at least the public would be aware.

Maybe an exemption for older vehicles... as in State recognized 25 years or even horseless carriages?

My neighbor had bought new Michelin made tires for his once a month minivan trip... less than 4,000 miles in four years and all the sidewalls had cracks.

Took it back to the Dealer and the Dealer made a claim... Michelin sent four new tires and neighbor had to pay full mount and balance.

I mostly change my own tires now... much more efficient than spending a couple of hours waiting around a tire shop...

 

[aczlan]

I mostly change my own tires now... much more efficient than spending a couple of hours waiting around a tire shop...

I have winter tires and summer tires. When I need new summer tires, I buy in the spring so I can just drop off the old tries/rims and then put them on when I take off the snows. I do the same in the fall when I need new snow tires. ~15 mins of my time that way and the shop's prices are within a few bucks of TireRack's prices.

Aaron Z

 

[JDgreen227]

My Hoe: 50% tread depth left on those OEM Michelins at 112,000 miles.....??? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Sorry, I don't buy that story, not at all.

 

[ultrarunner]

Mom drove a 1978 Golf for 23 years... the rear tires were original and never changed when she sold the car with 80,000 miles.

The fronts were changed twice.

The OEM tires are sempirit... made in Germany and still had legal tread