Loader bucket needs more curl

[abwehrly42]

I adapted a loader from a Steiner to fit my Yanmar tractor. My issue is that the bucket does not curl back far enough at low heights; when I drive around with a bucket of dirt I lose a lot of it. How should I change the geometry to gain more curl?

Ground level full curl:

Ground level full dump:

Max lift full curl:

Max lift full dump:

 

[ning]

Looks like my bucket geometry.
If I have dirt in it, I have to raise it up to headlight level if it's fairly full or I'll lose a bunch.

 

[ptsg]

The way I see it, you can either modify the bucket or the end of the loader arms, but I'll say right away, it will give you more curl but not an huge amount more, plus it will cost some dump angle at max height.

Essentially, you want to space the bottom of the bucket from the loader arms while keeping the top pin on the bucket as close as possible to the bucket. Like I said, you can either do it at the loader arms (see picture) or at the bucket by extending the ears out.

Before welding anything solid, make sure you have full travel of the cylinder and it's binding anywhere. Been there, done that.

Here is a picture from the loader I built for the Kubota B7000 I had back in the day. Note the "kick out" at the end of the loader arms.

Without having that parallel linkage you see on other loaders, it's very tricky to have any sort of curl back while maintaining any sort of useful dump at higher heights but to add this linkage to your loader, it's quite a project and would require shorter cylinders.

Here is another picture from the loader I built for my Branson. Mine has a quick attach but let's ignore that and imagine it's just welded to the bucket. This is what you would do if you extended the bucket ear. Note the distance between the bucket and the pins. The bottom one is spaced further than the top one.

Further more, you could cut the bucket and make it more triangular shape at the cost of bucket volume and also bucket dump at higher heights.

 

[CADplans]

If you modify the bucket for more curl back at ground level,,,,,,,
you will have the bucket dump dirt/gravel on YOU when lifted to full height.

For safe operation,, I think you have the correct geometry,, now.

The safe way to have more curl-back at ground level is to have a self leveling loader frame.

The self leveling loader frame, and a 4 bar linkage at the bucket is the ultimate answer.

Here is what a 4 bar linkage looks like,, you get at least 30% more curl rotation,,

 

[mikester]

Sell your machine and buy one suited for the jobs you need to do. Don't buy a SCUT.

 

[Sportsman762]

Nice job on retrofitting the loader @abwehrly42. It looks professionally done.

Good advice from @ptsg on how to resolve the issue. I had the same problem with my Massey 20C with only 20° of roll back. I put a skidsteer quick attach on the loader and switched to a Skidsteer bucket that had an angled back and that gives me a good range of motion. I lost some dump angle at full lift, but I am rarely dumping at full lift. There is no easy solution for you.

Sell your machine and buy one suited for the jobs you need to do. Don't buy a SCUT.

Not helpful at all. If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything. OP was not asking for advice on what to buy. Also not everyone has the money to afford or desire to spend their money on a nicer newer tractor.

 

[rScotty]

Great discussion and some beautiful loader work. I agree that adding any more curl to what you have risks dumping the bucket in your lap at full height. I bet most of us have done that or close. Some early skid steers were well-known for dumping on the operator. I watched a guy loading wood chips spill so many on himself that we had to dig him out of the cockpit. Unhurt. Good thing it wasn't gravel.

So I'm going to say that with those loader arms and that bucket you have done about the best you can. And congratulations to everyone for really good loader designs.

I agree with ptsg and others that kicking the bottom of the bucket forward seems to be the key to more curl, before doing that please consider some sort of spill plate to protect yourself at full lift.

But you asked if anyone had a geometric solution, not just more problems.... and I don't see a simple solution just using the parts you have there.
I do wonder if there is a solution that involves leaving your arms and cylinders as they are, but switching to a round back type of bucket. A round back bucket might be able to be combined with ptsg's clever extended bucket ears to make a make a more usable curl geometry. Might be worth drawing up that sort of design.

rScotty - impressed at all the nice custom work.

 

[CalG]

If you modify the bucket for more curl back at ground level,,,,,,,
you will have the bucket dump dirt/gravel on YOU when lifted to full height.

For safe operation,, I think you have the correct geometry,, now.

The safe way to have more curl-back at ground level is to have a self leveling loader frame.

The self leveling loader frame, and a 4 bar linkage at the bucket is the ultimate answer.

Here is what a 4 bar linkage looks like,, you get at least 30% more curl rotation,,

View attachment 1592465

Self leveling geometries and mechanics ALWAYS limits total range of articulation.

No Free Lunch! ;-)

 

[ptsg]

The self leveling linkage does move the curl cylinders back when the loader is lowered, providing even more curl back.

Then at max height, it will move the cylinders forward providing more dump and limiting curl so it doesn't ever dump the load on the operator and the tractor.

Pretty much provides everything a loader needs: more curl at low height, more dump at higher height, safety by not letting the load being dump on the operator and helps a lot during operation since it really reduces the amount of "2 functions at the same time" one has to do. Often tricky with tractors that provide lower flow rates.

In the case of the OP, that would be a major major modification with lots of work behind it. Plus, it would add weight to the loader, thus less lifting capacity.

 

[abwehrly42]

Excellent discussion; thank you everyone for the input.

 

[mikester]

Nice job on retrofitting the loader @abwehrly42. It looks professionally done.

Not helpful at all. If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything. OP was not asking for advice on what to buy. Also not everyone has the money to afford or desire to spend their money on a nicer newer tractor.

 

[nyone]

I had an old 1957 ford 851 that had a old loader with geometry just like the OPs. I just lifted the bucket more when transporting dirt.

You can also lift the bucket and get some dirt to sit more at the back of the bucket, then lower it. Or you could extend the bottom of the bucket longer. Kind of like a skid steer bucket.

 

[rScotty]

The self leveling linkage does move the curl cylinders back when the loader is lowered, providing even more curl back.

Then at max height, it will move the cylinders forward providing more dump and limiting curl so it doesn't ever dump the load on the operator and the tractor.

Pretty much provides everything a loader needs: more curl at low height, more dump at higher height, safety by not letting the load being dump on the operator and helps a lot during operation since it really reduces the amount of "2 functions at the same time" one has to do. Often tricky with tractors that provide lower flow rates.

In the case of the OP, that would be a major major modification with lots of work behind it. Plus, it would add weight to the loader, thus less lifting capacity.

Explanation? Diagrams? Two of our tractors have self-leveling and both use different methods - both of which restrict the ultimate motion .... I think. But neither tractors self-leveling motion moves the curl cylinders. I've either not seen that method of self leveling on a tractor or not understood what I was looking at.

rScotty

 

[ptsg]

Explanation? Diagrams? Two of our tractors have self-leveling and both use different methods - both of which restrict the ultimate motion .... I think. But neither tractors self-leveling motion moves the curl cylinders. I've either not seen that method of self leveling on a tractor or not understood what I was looking at.

rScotty

Self leveling using a mechanical linkage, usually above the loader arms, sometimes even ran inside the arms, will move the curl cylinders back and forth as the loader goes up and down.

See the picture below. Note the linkage running on top of the loader arms and note the bracket in the middle where the curl cylinders attach to. As the loader lifts, the linkage will push that bracket forward and therefore moving the cylinder as well, this will give more dump angle at max height.

As the loader lowers, the bracket is pulled back and so is the cylinder, giving it more curl back angle.

Closer look:

And a video with a side view of the linkage working. Maybe it helps making more sense.

If the self leveling is done hydraulically, using a second cylinder mounted, usually, above the lift cylinders but tied into the curl circuit, the curl cylinders are fixed in place as a non self leveling loader.

 

[rScotty]

Self leveling using a mechanical linkage, usually above the loader arms, sometimes even ran inside the arms, will move the curl cylinders back and forth as the loader goes up and down.

See the picture below. Note the linkage running on top of the loader arms and note the bracket in the middle where the curl cylinders attach to. As the loader lifts, the linkage will push that bracket forward and therefore moving the cylinder as well, this will give more dump angle at max height.

As the loader lowers, the bracket is pulled back and so is the cylinder, giving it more curl back angle.


View attachment 1612579

Closer look:

View attachment 1612581

And a video with a side view of the linkage working. Maybe it helps making more sense.

If the self leveling is done hydraulically, using a second cylinder mounted, usually, above the lift cylinders but tied into the curl circuit, the curl cylinders are fixed in place as a non self leveling loader.

Thanks. I have seen those, and never did take the time to look at one long enough to work out the geometry.

 

[jkmfarmer]

In my mind, it seems like adding (say 6-8") to the bottom edge of the bucket might help. Not sure how it might work or what issues it might create...

 

[Smokeydog]

Adding a Piranha type toothbar would add some bottom of bucket length. Improve digging and brush clearing. Cheap effective option?

Piranha® Tooth Bar - Official Site

www.bxpanded.com

 

[Renze]

In the case of the OP, that would be a major major modification with lots of work behind it. Plus, it would add weight to the loader, thus less lifting capacity.

I got about 20% more lift capacity after i converted to self levelling: the arm you lift the bucket over, is no longer the fixed pin on the tractor, to the center of gravity of a full bucket, but from the fixed pin to the bucket pin. The lift cylinders have to do less work, thereby increasing the capacity.

On the loader pictured, the tilt cylinder angle is too steep to have decent breakout force anyways.

 

[Renze]

In my mind, it seems like adding (say 6-8") to the bottom edge of the bucket might help. Not sure how it might work or what issues it might create...

His tilt cylinders are already pulling the bucket into a dead end. Lengthening the bucket will worsen that, and not increase the rollback angle.

Only thing that works without worsening the breakout force is cutting a wedge out the sidewalls so the backwall gets a narrower angle with the bottom. That puts the cylinders at a better advantage so it actually improves breakout force.