Loader questions and how much is too much?

[RonMar]

One last question, what do you use for counterweight and how heavy is it?

Thanks again!

I Don't... I am not usually toting around that much weight with the loader, so havn't found the need. I do keep the post hole auger boom on most times for utility work, but doubt it totals 100#

Besides, if I have the front end overloaded, I wan't it to feel squirrly so I can do something about it such as shed some load, or relocate it back farther for better mechanical advantage, as I did with the concrete block.

 

[crbr]

. I get the same response when I joke with the convicts at work when I'm bored.....

Convicts in S. Illinois. I pass your work place often going up I-57 to Bloomington.

 

[alchemysa]

I think a better counterweight would go a long way in taking some of the load off the front end. I have been meaning to build a proper counterweight but haven't yet. I usually use my finish mower as counter weight (about 600# hanging pretty far out back but obviously need more), how many pounds of counter weight would be recommended ? Thanks

I doubt a counterweight will take any substantial weight or stress off a loaded front end. It will add weight and traction to the rear end for sure but that may be all it does. The only way a counterweight could ease stress off the front end would be if it was so heavy or mounted so far back that it caused the tractor to see-saw (teeter-totter) on the back axle. That would make the front end light and could cause more problems than it solved. Adding weight to the rear may 'seem' to help but I wonder how much you have to add to really make any significant difference to the front end stress. Its an interesting question of geometry and physics. I guess it could be roughly tested by loading the FEL then taking a few front end measurements such as front tyre pressure, front axle height etc, before and after the addition of the rear mower.

 

[Kernopelli]

Convicts in S. Illinois. I pass your work place often going up I-57 to Bloomington.

Actually that is Big Muddy Correctional Center in Ina Ill. Used to be up there quite a bit for training but I work further south at Vienna. Coming from Tenn, you probably actually "go by" it too though. It is about 6 miles off RT. 24 at Exit 16. Stop on in sometime, we'll keep the light on for ya

To Ron, wanted to say thanks again. I'm definitely impressed.

 

[alchemysa]

Was thinking about starting with 800# of cement cast in a square plywood box/form that allows for some additional cement to be added if necessary. I would like to get enough weight on back to get the front end pretty light without a load in the bucket...similar to how the tractor was before putting the FEL on.

Thanks for the excellent input!

Youve added, say 600 lbs of metal to the front. (Most of it is WAY out the front!) Theres no way around it... Its never going to be as light as before you added that FEL.

(And all that loader weight is not just WAY out front of the front wheels, Its WAY out front of the BACK wheels! Thats the thing to remember if you are trying to add a rear counterweight to lighten up the front end.)

 

[hbaird]

Thank you for this post and all the responses. I am putting a loader on a tractor that some have said is not suitable for a loader. All this discussion leads me to believe I will have a usable but easily abusable machine. It will be OK for what I need to do IF I go slow and take care. It sounds to me that what you can lift standing still may be too much moving over rough ground. I would suggest finding the Max load pressure recommendation for your tire and trying out for a load or two. My 4.00/16 are rated at 60psi and 320KG each or 1414lb for the front end at 25mph. I expect the 25mph is assumed to running on smooth roads.
Harold

 

[john_bud]

I doubt a counterweight will take any substantial weight or stress off a loaded front end. It will add weight and traction to the rear end for sure but that may be all it does. The only way a counterweight could ease stress off the front end would be if it was so heavy or mounted so far back that it caused the tractor to see-saw (teeter-totter) on the back axle. That would make the front end light and could cause more problems than it solved. Adding weight to the rear may 'seem' to help but I wonder how much you have to add to really make any significant difference to the front end stress. Its an interesting question of geometry and physics. I guess it could be roughly tested by loading the FEL then taking a few front end measurements such as front tyre pressure, front axle height etc, before and after the addition of the rear mower.

Tsk tsk tsk! You must go back to your 10th grade physics teacher and write on the black board "I will not sleep in class" 100 times.

Lets say you put a 1000# cement block (2ftx2ftx2ft) on the 3pt hitch such that the center of the block is 3ft behind the rear axle. Lets further say that the front axle is 6ft from the rear axle. That block is counterbalanced by 500# of the weight bearing down on the front axle. Twice as far x half the weight. So the block is removing 500# of weight from the tires, making them squat less and the steering will be easier too. Added bonus is that the rear wheels will have more traction too.

jb

 

[alchemysa]

Lets say you put a 1000# cement block (2ftx2ftx2ft) on the 3pt hitch such that the center of the block is 3ft behind the rear axle. Lets further say that the front axle is 6ft from the rear axle. That block is counterbalanced by 500# of the weight bearing down on the front axle. Twice as far x half the weight. So the block is removing 500# of weight from the tires, making them squat less and the steering will be easier too. Added bonus is that the rear wheels will have more traction too.

jb

John Bud. I was hoping someone would know the equations 'cause I admit i didnt. . But lets say that 500 lb weight is 3 feet (at the very least!) IN FRONT of the front wheels (as it would be for a loader). In that case youve reduced the lightening effect on the front wheels by yet another 200lbs so the benefit is rapidly disappearing. If I understand this correctly, you're carrying around 1000lbs of extra weight on the rear end, so that you can feel like youve only added 200lb up front instead of 500lb.

Now if we put 1500 lbs of weight 3ft from the rear axle (instead of 1000 lbs) we'll make that (empty) loader feel like it aint there, but 1500 lbs is about half the weight of a small to mid size tractor, so you've doubled the usual stress on the rear bearings in order to remove a weight from the front end that was only 1/3rd more than usual

(Sorry I keep editing this cause I keep finding holes in my argument!)

 

[hbaird]

The math gets more complicated when tire compression is considered. Small amounts of tire distortion will reduce the affect of counterweighting. The rear tires are not a perfect fulcrum. And this all based on a static condition, ie standing still. When moving across rough ground the possibility of resonant frequencies can make more weight on the back much more likely to break the machine in half. I would suggest putting in the maximum pressure rated on the tires, then load the bucket until the tire bottom bulges to your taste. Then go very slow. If it starts bouncing slow way down quick. Very little bouncing is a lot of force trying to break the tractor. Try this at your own risk there is no guarantee expressed or implied.
Harold

 

[john_bud]

John Bud. I was hoping someone would know the equations 'cause I admit i didnt. . But lets say that 500 lb weight is 3 feet (at the very least!) IN FRONT of the front wheels (as it would be for a loader). In that case youve reduced the lightening effect on the front wheels by yet another 200lbs so the benefit is rapidly disappearing. If I understand this correctly, you're carrying around 1000lbs of extra weight on the rear end, so that you can feel like youve only added 200lb up front instead of 500lb.

Now if we put 1500 lbs of weight 3ft from the rear axle (instead of 1000 lbs) we'll make that (empty) loader feel like it aint there, but 1500 lbs is about half the weight of a small to mid size tractor, so you've doubled the usual stress on the rear bearings in order to remove a weight from the front end that was only 1/3rd more than usual

(Sorry I keep editing this cause I keep finding holes in my argument!)

Obviously, you are correct. At some point the load on the front can be so large that the effect of the rear counter weight on the front axle is minimal. That point is usually when you can't back up a hill with a full bucket. When the rear tires are in the air -- well, you're well past that point!

Imagine that you have 2000# in the bucket 5' in front of the front axle. Without any counterweight, the rear tires would lift off the ground (assumed). So the pivot point is the front axle. The rear tires being off the ground, there is no pivot point there. Now put the 1000# counter weight on the 3pt 3' behind the back axle. Imagine for a moment that the rear wheels are still off the ground. You add that weight and it is 1000# and 9' behind the front axle. One one side you have 10,000 ft-lb of torque from the loader's load and on the other you have 9,000 ft-lb from the counterweight + 85-95% of the tractors weight on the other. That is enough to bring the rear down and under control.

While it is only providing 500# of up-force on the front axle, it is still worth having to keep the rear on the ground. One big advantage is that it is reducing the empty bucket load on the front axle. That's a good thing too.

Ideally, the counter weight should be 125% of the loaders capacity. That will as a rule of thumb, remove the empty loader weight off of the front axle. Rigid mounting of the 3pt is often done on older tractors to take the strain off of the hydraulics. While everything will fail with use - I don't worry about tractor bearings and things like that. Breaking in half can happen - rare but it happens-, but usually only when loads are extremely large and shock loading and twist loading present.


Finally, as hbair stated, all this theory is for a static situation and sharp fixed pivots. Reality is neither! It's all very complex, but in general loaders work much better with a generous rear mounted counterweight. About the only real downside is the higher weight reduces fuel economy and will rut the ground.

jb