Loading tires with Propylene Glycol

   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #61  
Since this Nitrogen fill and Calcium Chloride topic continues to come up and at the risk of insulting someone (not intended) or of being perceived as displaying "my hat size" ;) (also not intended), I've done a few calculations as to how much rust can be expected inside a wheel/ tire loaded with Calcium Chloride, windshield washer fluid, or any other water based material that does not include a specific corrosion inhibitor. I am not advocating use of any of the mentioned liquids or gasses. Use what you feel is best. "Just the facts Ma'am":cool: )

For anyone interested, the physical principles used are Boyles Law and the Ideal Gas Laws. Also used is Avogodro's number. Please feel free to check my numbers as I rounded some values and did very quick calculations.

To the chase: Air is a combination of several gasses: Nitrogen, about 75% by weight (80% by volume), Oxygen, about 25%. Other gasses such as Argon are present but in such small amounts they will be ignored for this discussion. The chemical formula for rust is Fe2 O3. You can't have rust without Oxygen.

Sparing all the calculations: It appears my BX rear tire at 75% liquid fill holds about 6 gallons of air. I normally maintain around 15 PSI in the tire. Rough numbers, 13 grams of Oxygen are contained by this much air at this pressure. Iron rust formula is Fe2 O3. This much Oxygen can rust 30 grams or about 1 ounce of iron. This is about 1/4 of a cubic inch of steel. This assumes 100% reaction of all available Oxygen (doesn't happen) with only the steel ( probably more reacts with the rubber tire).

Next item: Nitrogen expands at the same rate as any other gas when the temperature rises. (Google: Ideal Gas Law) This includes air. The advantage of Nitrogen in a NASCAR tire is the lack of liquid water that can be present in compressed air. BTW, have you drained your compressor tank lately? When the temperature of the tire gets above the boiling point of water, the liquid can change to steam raising the pressure more than would be expected with dry air. I do not see this as a problem in tractor tires. Mine never get into the 220 degree range.

All this being said, I did have a wheel rust out with Calcium Chloride. The valve was leaking slightly allowing the liquid to keep the outside lip of the wheel damp with the solution. I knew the rust would occur but never "got around" to replacing the valve core or even just screwing on a valve cap. I seldom used the tractor and it was stored in a humid basement storage area. The lip finally rusted through after 4 or 5 years of leaking. When I pulled the tire, the inside of the rim had no rust. The other rim is 30+ years old with no problem.

Something else just occured to me.:rolleyes: Any tubeless tire filled with the somewhat wet air as you get from a standard compressor would have far more Oxygen available than a fluid filled tire. Shouldn't it rust out sooner???:confused: Gotta stir the pot a little!:D
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #62  
There is a skew inthe numbers. Water self ionizes... thus a liquid filled tire that uses water or partial water fill could yeild a ready source of oxygen. I'm not up on my chemistry.. so I'm not aware of what molecole will be more agressive in aquiring the free 'O'.. free hydrogen ion to make h20.. or the iron to make fe203.

get a tube and practice a little care and maintenance and you can mostly dump the math in the trash.

Soundguy
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #63  
Soundguy said:
There is a skew inthe numbers. I'm not up on my chemistry..

Soundguy
This forum offers some challenging questions and sometimes makes people think. If you think the numbers are skewed. Get up on your chemistry and give us the right numbers. I took the time to run the calcs. You say I'm wrong so please show me my mistake so I won't make the same one again.
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #64  
Harry c said:
Since this Nitrogen fill and Calcium Chloride topic continues to come up and at the risk of insulting someone (not intended) or of being perceived as displaying "my hat size" ;) (also not intended), I've done a few calculations as to how much rust can be expected inside a wheel/ tire loaded with Calcium Chloride, windshield washer fluid, or any other water based material that does not include a specific corrosion inhibitor. I am not advocating use of any of the mentioned liquids or gasses. Use what you feel is best. "Just the facts Ma'am":cool: ) ..........

Thank you sir. You are a scholar and a tractor driver! Your analysis is interesting and your own experience with rust at the valve opening drives home the repeated experience of others that it is when corrosives such as CaCl2 gain access to exogenous air/oxygen that the worst corrosion occurs.

One other factor to be considered in this oxygen/rust discussion is the role of paint on the tractor wheel. I would presume that the paint on wheels is pretty much the same inside the tire as on the visible hub. Obviously the visible hubs don't rust nearly as quickly as unprotected steel so I imagine the same would be true in a fluid filled tire.

I also wonder if there are any reactions between the tire itself and water or other fluid which might also consume available oxygen. Steel is not the only substance that oxidizes. That would be likely be a small factor but might use up some of the oxygen otherwise available to cause the minor rust inside the tire/wheel.

I'm not a chemist so don't know how to think through Soundguys point. Obviously water has a lot of oxygen molecules in it but I'd imagine there is a pretty stable association between the hydrogen and oxygen or otherwise we'd find tractor tires filled with hydrogen over time:eek: .
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #65  
Harry c said:
This forum offers some challenging questions and sometimes makes people think. If you think the numbers are skewed. Get up on your chemistry and give us the right numbers. I took the time to run the calcs. You say I'm wrong so please show me my mistake so I won't make the same one again.

I don't think I'll be going to add a chem engineering degree to my belt any time in the near future.

Wikipedia has some fairly decent explanations of self ionization of water into hydronium and hydroxide. It's the hydroxide I would worry about.. Water with the equal amounts of ion pairs would still be neutral as a whole.. but I imagine a free OH- hydroxide molecule , if it hit exposed iron, might cause corosion..

Like I said.. I'm not a chemist.. I don't know the level of effect this will have on the total.

like I said before.. all the math can go int he trash if you practice a little preventative maintenance and use a tube...

soundguy

Soundguy
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #66  
IslandTractor said:
Thank you sir. You are a scholar and a tractor driver! Your analysis is interesting and your own experience with rust at the valve opening drives home the repeated experience of others that it is when corrosives such as CaCl2 gain access to exogenous air/oxygen that the worst corrosion occurs.

One other factor to be considered in this oxygen/rust discussion is the role of paint on the tractor wheel. I would presume that the paint on wheels is pretty much the same inside the tire as on the visible hub. Obviously the visible hubs don't rust nearly as quickly as unprotected steel so I imagine the same would be true in a fluid filled tire.

I also wonder if there are any reactions between the tire itself and water or other fluid which might also consume available oxygen. Steel is not the only substance that oxidizes. That would be likely be a small factor but might use up some of the oxygen otherwise available to cause the minor rust inside the tire/wheel.

I'm not a chemist so don't know how to think through Soundguys point. Obviously water has a lot of oxygen molecules in it but I'd imagine there is a pretty stable association between the hydrogen and oxygen or otherwise we'd find tractor tires filled with hydrogen over time:eek: .

You are right on all your points. If water easily disassociated into Hydrogen and Oxygen, the world's water supply would simply go away. Hydrogen is the lightest of all elements and in a free state would simply float to the highest level of the atmosphere. Considerable energy is required to separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen. This is normally accomplished with electrolysis. You are right about the reaction with the rubber. If you notice I mentioned that in my original post. I chose to ignore the protective coating of paint simply because I was calculating the max amount of iron that could be oxidized by the available Oxygen.
Soundguy is right about the autoionization of water. It does occur, but only 1 OH ion is formed for every 500,000,000 molecules of water. The affinity of the hydroxide ion for iron is lower than the affinity for the H30 ion so it will re-associate with an H30 instead of the iron.

One question I expected is: "How come iron can rust in the ocean when it's not exposed to air?" I'll answer that in advance so this thing may be able to close. Oxygen can be dissolved in water. This is primarily accomplished by wave action or by the aerator in your aquarium. This is the Oxygen fish "breathe". They do not break the molecular structure of the water. Since this dissolved Oxygen is continually replenished, there is enough excess to corrode metal. Depending on the source of the fluid used in the tire, there may be a small amount of dissolved Oxygen. Due to nature's resistance to order, some will come out of solution as free Oxygen but some will dissolve so will likely remain a net neutral. Inside the tire there is no source for continuous replenishment so the oxidation stops when the Oxygen equilibrium is reacted.

As Soundguy noted, a tube will certainly eliminate most corrosion concerns. Personally, I try to avoid tubes whenever I can. Tubes cost $$, the tire has to be broken down to install, and a flat requires removal from the tractor, removal of the fluid, and breaking down the tire with all these steps reversed for reassembly. With a tubeless tire, I simply turn the hole to the top, support the corner of the tractor so the fluid stops coming out and stuff in a tire plug.
Soundguy is dead-on with the maintenance comment. Don't let the liquid continually leak onto the outside of the wheel. I already told you how I know about that.
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #67  
Harry c said:
Considerable energy is required to separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen. This is normally accomplished with electrolysis. .

Actually.. water self ionizes.. You can google it... search for:

self-ionization of water, autoionization of water, autodissociation of water

It normally keeps a ballance of the ions.. however.. I wonder what happens when there are other materials available .. like free iron... I'm not sure what OH- and free iron might do.. .. Hydroxide is .. well.. quite caustic.

soundguy
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #68  
Soundguy said:
Actually.. water self ionizes.. You can google it... search for:

self-ionization of water, autoionization of water, autodissociation of water

It normally keeps a ballance of the ions.. however.. I wonder what happens when there are other materials available .. like free iron... I'm not sure what OH- and free iron might do.. .. Hydroxide is .. well.. quite caustic.

soundguy

I think Harry's point is that autoionization is such a low level event that for practical purposes it is irrelevant. Most chemical reactions that require energy input to drive at a commercially or practically useful rate still do occur without added energy just at a much much reduced rate. The opposite reaction presumably occurs also (?deautoionization or reforming of H2O)

Hydroxide may well be caustic but when it is diluted 1:500 million with H2O that ceases to be a practical issue.

I'm with you on the chemical engineering degree thing though.:rolleyes:
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #69  
IslandTractor said:
I think Harry's point is that autoionization is such a low level event that for practical purposes it is irrelevant. Most chemical reactions that require energy input to drive at a commercially or practically useful rate still do occur without added energy just at a much much reduced rate. The opposite reaction presumably occurs also (?deautoionization or reforming of H2O)

Hydroxide may well be caustic but when it is diluted 1:500 million with H2O that ceases to be a practical issue.

I'm with you on the chemical engineering degree thing though.:rolleyes:

I agree on the hydroxide dilution.. however.. it only takes it hitting bare metal one time to start.still.. I don't know the ioization rate.. or the affinity for iron of hydroxide... and furthermore.. it would be hard to calculate how often one of those ions was formed when near the metal.. etc.... since the issue of loaded tires also involves time... advance 20 years and what was a negligible event may be a noticeable effect.too many variables to reun a real accurate set of data, passed a guesstament I believe,..... that's why I don't like loading 'naked' rims with water or caustic mixes.. though water with af in it.. or beet juice wouldn't be an Issue I don't believe... Since i don't have that chem degree.. I just stick to tubes. Sure they can be a pain when yo need to patcha tire.. but it's all a trade off... You can usually run a tubed tire casing well past what you would run a tubeless casing, since all the casing has to do is keep the tube contained...

soundguy
 
   / Loading tires with Propylene Glycol #70  
Soundguy, you are in FL where ice is only found in cold drinks. Do you use tubes with plain water ballast in your tractors?
 

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