Logging Rant/Venting

[N80]

We signed a contract with a forester 2 years ago to have about 175 acres of pines thinned. Really nice guy. He came with a recommendation from locals. Our property is hilly with lots of deep ravines, especially on the back half. He told me right off the bat that the loggers would not like working the place but that they had to do the harder jobs for him if they wanted the easy ones too.

Nothing happened for a year. He said it was due to low prices at the mill. We renewed the contract for another year. We were not in a big hurry. Nothing happened for nearly another year and then they started work last week on the front half of the property which is flatter and easier access. Then I get a call and he says he will need us to build a road and put in culverts on the back half. Does not give us a price but probably in the $3000 range. I'm not happy. Nothing in the contract about this but I decided I'd suck it up and do it. He was looking into a portable bridge so it was on hold for the time being. Then he calls yesterday and says it is too wet and the logging crew is leaving now that they've done the easy part. He can't say when they'll return.

The thing is, it is not very wet. Certainly not a drought but this is about as good as it gets around here.

Now I'm very unhappy. The trees need thinning and the money would be useful at this point.

The current contract expires on 15 September. He says there is no way they will be back before then.

My theory is this: He does not have enough clout with his logging crews. He cannot get them to cover any road prep at all. They have done no gravel, etc. They want easy access for the log trucks and don't want to accept fuel costs of skidding the trees longer distances but won't help with road prep. They took the gravy trees off our place and now want to move on to an easier job and he can't do anything about it. Further, there is no reason to expect that the weather is ever going to be any better than it is now, so I'm not buying the "too wet" excuse.

Anyway, I'm going to fire him today. I'm not looking forward to it because he is a very nice man. But after two years of waiting and then his crews doing the easy stuff and leaving, I think I've been more than patient.

Just venting.

 

[TractorGuy]

Reputable logger is a contradiction in terms. They all make a mess and do what is easiest for them no matter what they tell you. Bet yours furnished the contract so it isn't binding on his part in any way.

 

[N80]

We contracted with the forester, forester contracted with the logger so that will be his problem. Our contract with him has 4 weeks left on it and he says they won't be back before then so from a contract standpoint I'm clear and legal.

Altogether a very frustrating process. They left piles of 5 gallon hydro fluid buckets and trash last time I was there. If it isn't gone when I go down there today I'll call them to come get it or I'll deliver it to them myself.

The hard part is going to be finding someone to do the back half of the place. I know another forester who has a reputation of being a bit heavy handed and ruthless. He did a tiny clearing for me in the past but no problems. I chose not to use him because my current guy seemed friendly and easy to work with. I think the 'ruthless' guy has more clout with the loggers as he's the largest forester in the area. Maybe he can get a crew in there whether they like it or not. I understand everyone has to make money. But diesel is cheap now and when I get the whole place cut in 5-10 years it will be a lucrative job. I certainly won't be giving it to the folks that bailed on me.

 

[Piston]

Reputable logger is a contradiction in terms. They all make a mess and do what is easiest for them no matter what they tell you. Bet yours furnished the contract so it isn't binding on his part in any way.

This is absolutely untrue, and frankly quite rude and disrespectful.

When people make generalizations like this, they instantly lose all credibility in the eyes of the readers.

 

[TractorGuy]

This is absolutely untrue, and frankly quite rude and disrespectful.

When people make generalizations like this, they instantly lose all credibility in the eyes of the readers.

Sorry if it offends anyone that may disagree but this has been my personal experience with Forester/Loggers.

 

[RollingsFarms]

I've been lucky in that I've had the same forester for over 20 years. He knows my expectations and we have a great business relationship. I gave him his first job when he was fresh out of Clemson forestry program. I've only had one issue with a logging crew that was unacceptable to me and I told him to never bring them back. We now deal with 3 logging companies and whichever one is available at the time that's who we go with. I won't entertain any new companies because I'm fine with these 3 and know their work. The problem I'm running into is everyone and their brother is clear cutting and crews are backed up for months. I've had contracts signed since May and I'm still waiting on my thinning job to be done on 200+ acres. I just made it clear to the forester that I'm fine with waiting, just don't start the job when the prices fall back down, I'll just wait until the go back up again. They've peaked for now so expect them to go back down here soon.

 

[N80]

This is absolutely untrue, and frankly quite rude and disrespectful.

When people make generalizations like this, they instantly lose all credibility in the eyes of the readers.

Disagree. Sometimes stereotypes come from collective experience. Around here this is pretty much assumed anytime you have to deal with them. That does not mean that there are no conscientious, reputable logging operations here. But it does mean that they are so much the exception that no one can tell you the name of one.

And while stereotypes almost always have exceptions, groups and organizations often earn their stereotypes. This is most definitely the case with logging operations in my neck South Carolina. And from first and second hand experience the stereotype fits and is well deserved. Even with this operation they have left trash all over the place. The have spilled/dumped hydraulic fluid on the ground. When I look at the thinning results I see large trees removed among small trees left standing. This is so common as to be considered standard operating procedure and to be expected. They also tore up my gate and cut hardwoods they shouldn't have. Again, this is so common I'm not even complaining about it.

My daughter's classmate, a nice young man from a nice family has begun a logging company himself. Hopefully a reputable one. He is just outside our immediate region but I am going to call him to see what he can do, or who he recommends.

He is not a forester and I don't know if a landowner can contract directly with a logger or not. I'll find out.

 

[N80]

RollingFarms, that is good to hear. What part of SC are you in? And if you don't mind would you share, either here or via PM the name of your forester and which looters (ha ha , funny auto correct, I meant loggers of course) he uses? No need to mention the outliers. And again, I do not feel like my forester is unscrupulous. I think he just has no clout with or control over the loggers.

 

[roadhunter]

This is absolutely untrue, and frankly quite rude and disrespectful.

When people make generalizations like this, they instantly lose all credibility in the eyes of the readers.

Hardly. Loggers are like most contractors. Undependable people who often don't deliver what they promise. That's why there are babysitters/project mangers/foresters/architects/GC's to make sure they do thier job on projects. Liquidated damages and contract periods to make sure they do their work on time.

I dont' necessarily think they are all bad people but as was mentioned they will do what's best for them, not you, more often than not. That's why bigger projects have more babysitters , rules, and regulations to follow.

The landowner in this situation should be furious after they took the whole job including the good/bad portions of work and simply did the easiest and most profitable portion for them and left him hanging. Now he has nothing but difficult to access timber and a mess to clean up.

 

[RollingsFarms]

RollingFarms, that is good to hear. What part of SC are you in? And if you don't mind would you share, either here or via PM the name of your forester and which looters (ha ha , funny auto correct, I meant loggers of course) he uses? No need to mention the outliers. And again, I do not feel like my forester is unscrupulous. I think he just has no clout with or control over the loggers.

PM sent. I'm outside of Columbia and have land that borders the the bombing range and also some smaller tracts in Pinewood and Summerton.

 

[kubotacres]

PM sent. I'm outside of Columbia and have land that borders the the bombing range and also some smaller tracts in Pinewood and Summerton.

Reminds me of this situation.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/355915-logger-walked-off-job-yesterday.html?highlight=logging

 

[Larry Caldwell]

We signed a contract with a forester 2 years ago to have about 175 acres of pines thinned. Really nice guy. He came with a recommendation from locals. Our property is hilly with lots of deep ravines, especially on the back half. He told me right off the bat that the loggers would not like working the place but that they had to do the harder jobs for him if they wanted the easy ones too.

Nothing happened for a year. He said it was due to low prices at the mill. We renewed the contract for another year. We were not in a big hurry. Nothing happened for nearly another year and then they started work last week on the front half of the property which is flatter and easier access. Then I get a call and he says he will need us to build a road and put in culverts on the back half. Does not give us a price but probably in the $3000 range. I'm not happy. Nothing in the contract about this but I decided I'd suck it up and do it. He was looking into a portable bridge so it was on hold for the time being. Then he calls yesterday and says it is too wet and the logging crew is leaving now that they've done the easy part. He can't say when they'll return.

The thing is, it is not very wet. Certainly not a drought but this is about as good as it gets around here.

Now I'm very unhappy. The trees need thinning and the money would be useful at this point.

The current contract expires on 15 September. He says there is no way they will be back before then.

My theory is this: He does not have enough clout with his logging crews. He cannot get them to cover any road prep at all. They have done no gravel, etc. They want easy access for the log trucks and don't want to accept fuel costs of skidding the trees longer distances but won't help with road prep. They took the gravy trees off our place and now want to move on to an easier job and he can't do anything about it. Further, there is no reason to expect that the weather is ever going to be any better than it is now, so I'm not buying the "too wet" excuse.

Anyway, I'm going to fire him today. I'm not looking forward to it because he is a very nice man. But after two years of waiting and then his crews doing the easy stuff and leaving, I think I've been more than patient.

Just venting.

What kind of performance penalties did you put in the contract?

 

[CADplans]

I have considered selling my timber twice,,, both times I considered the $$$ about 20% too low.

Anyways, the contract I have been offered is ALL the money up front,,,
with a limited 12 months to remove ALL the timber.

Anything remaining after 12 months reverts back to me owning it.

There is also a $2,000 cleanup fund in escrow,,,
supposedly the logger never has abandoned a dollar of escrow.

I would never consider selling on shares,, obviously the loggers would take the gravy and leave.
I offered to build a crossing for a stream, the logger prefers to use a portable bridge.

 

[smstonypoint]

I have considered selling my timber twice,,, both times I considered the $$$ about 20% too low.

Anyways, the contract I have been offered is ALL the money up front,,,
with a limited 12 months to remove ALL the timber.

Anything remaining after 12 months reverts back to me owning it.

There is also a $2,000 cleanup fund in escrow,,,
supposedly the logger never has abandoned a dollar of escrow.

I would never consider selling on shares,, obviously the loggers would take the gravy and leave.
I offered to build a crossing for a stream, the logger prefers to use a portable bridge.

Lump-sum sales limit your ability to deduct operating expenses for income tax purposes (Timber Taxation: A General Guide for Forestland Owners — Forest Finance and Taxation — Penn State Extension). Pay-as-cut sales work for me, but I use a consulting forester and contracts that protect my interests.

Steve

 

[MossRoad]

We signed a contract with a forester 2 years ago to have about 175 acres of pines thinned. Really nice guy. He came with a recommendation from locals. Our property is hilly with lots of deep ravines, especially on the back half. He told me right off the bat that the loggers would not like working the place but that they had to do the harder jobs for him if they wanted the easy ones too.

Nothing happened for a year. He said it was due to low prices at the mill. We renewed the contract for another year. We were not in a big hurry. Nothing happened for nearly another year and then they started work last week on the front half of the property which is flatter and easier access. Then I get a call and he says he will need us to build a road and put in culverts on the back half. Does not give us a price but probably in the $3000 range. I'm not happy. Nothing in the contract about this but I decided I'd suck it up and do it. He was looking into a portable bridge so it was on hold for the time being. Then he calls yesterday and says it is too wet and the logging crew is leaving now that they've done the easy part. He can't say when they'll return.

The thing is, it is not very wet. Certainly not a drought but this is about as good as it gets around here.

Now I'm very unhappy. The trees need thinning and the money would be useful at this point.

The current contract expires on 15 September. He says there is no way they will be back before then.

My theory is this: He does not have enough clout with his logging crews. He cannot get them to cover any road prep at all. They have done no gravel, etc. They want easy access for the log trucks and don't want to accept fuel costs of skidding the trees longer distances but won't help with road prep. They took the gravy trees off our place and now want to move on to an easier job and he can't do anything about it. Further, there is no reason to expect that the weather is ever going to be any better than it is now, so I'm not buying the "too wet" excuse.

Anyway, I'm going to fire him today. I'm not looking forward to it because he is a very nice man. But after two years of waiting and then his crews doing the easy stuff and leaving, I think I've been more than patient.

Just venting.

Feel free to vent. We've seen a couple stories on TBN similar to this. Its good that folks post this kind of info for those of us not so familiar with the tactics of cherry-picking loggers(no pun intended). Maybe we can put in a contract that if they do the hard section(s) first, and finish them, then, and only then, can they access the the gravy site(s). Kind of carrot and stick approach.

 

[Egon]

Re Moss; Break up the area into specific lots and then set up the order of logging in the contract?

 

[Turbys_1700]

We just had 20 plus acres cut of mostly chestnut oak and approximately 10 acres of low land Poplar. The Forrester contacted us looking for parcels to cut. He mapped out the area and calculated footage, species,nd estimated value. We had the option to take bids or go with a logger looking for timber to cut. The logger bid was under the Forrester's estimate by 20%. We took it. A contract was signed and the loggers did exactly what was stated in the contract. All adjoining land owners were contacted via registered mail requiring response to validate property boundaries. The process was seamless. Payment was made in December of 2015 and January of 2016. This Forrester did a great job for us. He worked on commission and knew the logging company. They were excellent.

We've had timber cut many years ago by a local logger that had been in the business for years. Dad knew them selling them farm equipment and they had a good reputation. Contract was a handshake and revenue was split evenly. Things are certainly different now.

Difficult situation to be in to say the least N80. Keep us updated.

 

[N80]

To answer a few questions:No we did not put any performance penalties in. No we did not put in a cleanup escrow account in either. And no, it was not a lump sum contract. And the reason that none of these things were really possible is that this was a pulpwood thinning on rough terrain with poor access. This was not a big money maker for these loggers. I doubt any of them would have even taken the job without a local forester pressuring them.

Now a correction: We did contract with the logger. I think this is going to work to my advantage.

Update: Went down to my place yesterday. Was cleaning up my roads on the tractor when a man drove up with a t-shirt on with the name of the logging company. He was the father of the young men who own the company. He had come to repair the gate which they ran over with a logging truck (even though it was obvious no 18 wheeler could have gotten through). I assumed they would take it down or ask me to. Anyway, really nice guy and fortunately when he came up I was standing by a huge pile of trash they had left. He was furious and he cleaned it up. He said that his son's company did not condone this sort of the thing. Unfortunately he did not see the trash scatter all over my place clearly thrown for the skidder and feller-buncher. I told him not to repair the gate, I was planning to put up a better one. He left me a new gate and some bags of concrete. He was glad not to have to work in the 95 degree heat.

About an hour later the forester drives up. Again, super nice guy. He explained that the access road into the back of the place, which is owned by a neighbor, was too wet to come in on. It is not wet here right now. I looked at the road. It is not wet. Yes, the trucks would have messed it up but my neighbor was pretty much letting this road grow over anyway. He did not care if it got messed up. The forester wanted the loggers to finish the job up front, wait a day and then go in....according to him. He went on to say they did not want to wait, time is money and all that. But then he confirmed everything I knew all along and he said, and I quote, " I don't have any control over the loggers." I asked him when they would be back. He says weeks, not months. But then his says my neighbor said they could come in in November, but wasn't happy about it because of deer season. I will not allow that. The neighbor has been very gracious so far.

The forester also looked around and commented on what good work they had done. I nodded my head since I had not walked around that afternoon. I walked around latter and even though I don't know what I'm doing I observed several things: 1) Every large tree that was easy to reach, they cut, leaving clusters of small trees. 2) They left a lot of stuff un-thinnned. Granted this was low dollar stuff. But the contract was for thinning. They basically cut their lanes and did not deviate out of them much. I pretty much got a backward thinning.

So basically the loggers ate the icing off a dry cupcake and left the rest on the table.

The plot thickens. My B-I-L who lives next door is an old hand at this. His cousin is the big forester in the region that I chose not to use to begin with as his reputation is that he is a bit ruthless. This works to the advantage of the landowner more times than not but it often comes down to "let me do the job and don't ask any questions" because he has a lot of clout with the loggers and the mills. His second hand man is a good friend of my B-I-L and is considered very trustworthy and a straight shooter. Also, we found out that our contract is with a large logging contractor and our loggers were contracted by them. The main operations guy is a friend of my B-I-L also. He has put in a call. I am going to call him on Monday too.

Bottom line: I'm going to let the logging contractor (and the forester) know that they have until September 15 (end of the contract) to come back and get the job done. They, and the forester, have an expectation that since they have started the job they can come back whenever they want. The forester says they will want to come back because they paid to have the road on my neighbor's place bulldozed and prepped. But if they are not back on the I will not allow them back on the place.

Moral of the story: Do your homework. Do the leg work. Ask around. Read contracts. Don't assume that nice people have the skills to get a job done just because they are nice. Take time off from work and be on site. Meet the crews etc. Come to TBN and do a search. Open a new thread. PM me.

The next time I do this I will be much better prepared. And if they don't come back in September that will probably be next summer. And finally take notes and take names. Don't work with people who can't or won't do the job they've agreed to do.

Final thought: I understand the stakes here. I understand that this was not a cherry job. I understand that everyone has to look out for themselves. I understand that time, diesel, and wood quality are the issue. But I also understand that there was a contract and an agreement.

 

[RollingsFarms]

With anything in life you live and learn. I will say that I hate you are doing the thinning job now instead of when the building market picked up some and the mills needed wood badly, they actually had a shortage. What happened was anyone that owned land said "come clear cut mine!" and they were taking average timber off of places. Sounds like your land has some good wood on it and I promise you would have seen a different result had you been able to thin a year or so ago. They'd have not left a single tree behind, hard to get to or not. Are you planning on replanting? I always replant my farm and that gives me a leg up on the ones who clear cut and leave it and it ends up with a bunch of junk gum trees. Last time I priced it was $.71 per tree (long leaf).

 

[N80]

Here, last summer prices were very low. That's why they didn't cut, at least according to the forester. I don't remember the per ton price we are getting but others have told me it is a decent price. All of this wood is going to the paper mill for pulp.

This is an initial thinning on a 15 year old stand of planted pine. So they are getting much decent stuff. I've got about 10 acres that will go for lumber, hopefully, in about 5 years. Decent money in that I'm told. The rest could go for pulp in another 10 or maybe lumber if I let it go 15 or more according to state forester.

No need to replant yet. When the time comes for a final cutting it will probably be up to my kids (or my interest in their financial benefit) to decide if they want to replant.