We all know that a hydro gives up some efficiency, but I've often wondered if a hydro gives up power versus a gear due to its not being geared as low. For instance, my JD 4110 hydro is geared to about 4.5 mph in low range. I've noticed under the right circumstances (high load with high traction) that I can stall the drive motor popping the relief circuit. I've read where others have seen the same thing with other brands, models, and sizes. Would the same machine in the gear model, which in the case of the 4110G is geared to about 0.7 mph in first, be able to deliver significantly more torque to the ground before stalling the engine?
Loss of power with hydro over gear???
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_RaT_
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"Would the same machine in the gear model, which in the case of the 4110G is geared to about 0.7 mph in first, be able to deliver significantly more torque to the ground before stalling the engine?"
I would say yes, but keeping in mind the working enviroment. I have put myself into the situation when moving material for example where in 2nd or 3rd on a shuttle tractor I no longer can penetrate the material with the bucket so the next thing that happens is I spin the tires and dig a small hole that after 12 trips is now a big hole. It's easy to do with R1's. I find with the hydrostat, the engine does load up quicker which clues me in that I'm done. Typically my next step is to rotate the loader bucket down which allows further penetration and then loader up and curl simultaneously. I think it gets down to technique. I definitely know from my experience that a gear tractor in low gears has more torque at the wheels. The question then boils down to how important that is to you. For folks that need to break open soil, I would think very important. For folks who use their tractor in a general purpose enviroment, not nearly as much. There is no question that both types of transmissions have their place. There are times when I'm ripping that I wish my hydro was a shuttle tractor, fortunatly, I don't have those tasks frequent enough for it to be a concern.
I would say yes, but keeping in mind the working enviroment. I have put myself into the situation when moving material for example where in 2nd or 3rd on a shuttle tractor I no longer can penetrate the material with the bucket so the next thing that happens is I spin the tires and dig a small hole that after 12 trips is now a big hole. It's easy to do with R1's. I find with the hydrostat, the engine does load up quicker which clues me in that I'm done. Typically my next step is to rotate the loader bucket down which allows further penetration and then loader up and curl simultaneously. I think it gets down to technique. I definitely know from my experience that a gear tractor in low gears has more torque at the wheels. The question then boils down to how important that is to you. For folks that need to break open soil, I would think very important. For folks who use their tractor in a general purpose enviroment, not nearly as much. There is no question that both types of transmissions have their place. There are times when I'm ripping that I wish my hydro was a shuttle tractor, fortunatly, I don't have those tasks frequent enough for it to be a concern.
DK35vince
Super Member
[qoute] With gear tractors, are the gearing ranges more flexible and cover a wider range)</font>
Not really, no.
You can ajust you speed up and down (very similar to a semi truck) by using the foot throttle and changing RPM's, but there isn't much differance.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( and can you change gears on the fly without stopping?
)</font>
Depends on the type of gear transmission you have.
Example- sliding gear transmissions- Stop to shift (all gears and ranges)
Sycro transmission- stop to shift between ranges (usually 4 gears in each range), shift on the go in all gears in that range.
Glide shift/power shift- shift on the go no clutch needed (some may have ranges you need to stop to shift, I'm not sure on that)
Not really, no.
You can ajust you speed up and down (very similar to a semi truck) by using the foot throttle and changing RPM's, but there isn't much differance.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( and can you change gears on the fly without stopping?
)</font>
Depends on the type of gear transmission you have.
Example- sliding gear transmissions- Stop to shift (all gears and ranges)
Sycro transmission- stop to shift between ranges (usually 4 gears in each range), shift on the go in all gears in that range.
Glide shift/power shift- shift on the go no clutch needed (some may have ranges you need to stop to shift, I'm not sure on that)
Bob_Skurka
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Vince, great post explaining the various gear transmissions. I think that many people look at 2 different tractors of the same HP and think they are getting a bargain in one versus the other and forget that one may have a more advanced type of gear transmission.
<font color="blue">
( With gear tractors, are the gearing ranges more flexible and cover a wider range) </font>
Also, in addition to what what Vince wrote, a HST can operate at slower ground speeds than most gear tractors while keeping the RPMs up for PTO powered implements. As Vince wrote, you can change the RPMs to adjust speed on a gear tractor, but if you are using a PTO powered implement and you slow the engine, you are slowing the PTO and thus slowing the implement. So in a situation like very heavy grass that is bogging down a cutter, slowing the ground speed can actually be counter productive with a gear machine but will help with a HST. Same thing can be encountered when using a tiller and the ground conditions start bogging things down.
I still think it would help the members of the forum to know what tasks the tractor will be used for so they can help with some more informative answers as to which tractor & transmission would be better for you. Are you mowing the hills? If so, roughly what % of your time is going to be spent mowing? Are you using a FEL on the hills? Are you putting in a garden and need a tiller, culivator, etc? Do you have another machine for mowing so that this will never have a mower deck attached? Are you pulling a box blade, if so what % of the time? Is cost your primary concern or are you looking for the best compramise between spending and utility? Etc. . .
<font color="blue">
( With gear tractors, are the gearing ranges more flexible and cover a wider range) </font>
Also, in addition to what what Vince wrote, a HST can operate at slower ground speeds than most gear tractors while keeping the RPMs up for PTO powered implements. As Vince wrote, you can change the RPMs to adjust speed on a gear tractor, but if you are using a PTO powered implement and you slow the engine, you are slowing the PTO and thus slowing the implement. So in a situation like very heavy grass that is bogging down a cutter, slowing the ground speed can actually be counter productive with a gear machine but will help with a HST. Same thing can be encountered when using a tiller and the ground conditions start bogging things down.
I still think it would help the members of the forum to know what tasks the tractor will be used for so they can help with some more informative answers as to which tractor & transmission would be better for you. Are you mowing the hills? If so, roughly what % of your time is going to be spent mowing? Are you using a FEL on the hills? Are you putting in a garden and need a tiller, culivator, etc? Do you have another machine for mowing so that this will never have a mower deck attached? Are you pulling a box blade, if so what % of the time? Is cost your primary concern or are you looking for the best compramise between spending and utility? Etc. . .
DK35vince
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I guess the best answer you can give me is that you have a gear tractor and have no problems with hills. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)</font>
Is the hydro easier to work on hills ? - Slightly easier, yes.
Do I have problems on hills with a gear machine ? - NO
Is the hydro easier to work on hills ? - Slightly easier, yes.
Do I have problems on hills with a gear machine ? - NO
cowboydoc
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You can use a gear tractor the same as a hydro tractor. Instead of using the hydro pedal you use the accelertor pedal. It's no different than driving a car on slick or hilly conditions.
cowboydoc
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<font color="red">With gear tractors, are the gearing ranges more flexible and cover a wider range, and can you change gears on the fly without stopping?
</font>
The answer to this question is yes. With a synchro or shuttle shift you can easily change gears. It isn't a problem at all. Even with a 5 ton baler with a full bale on a steep grade I can change gears and keep going without ever stopping or going backwards.
The newer tractors also have a wider torque range. This means that if you are going up a hill then you have extra torque that kicks in and gets you up the hill without shifting gears.
</font>
The answer to this question is yes. With a synchro or shuttle shift you can easily change gears. It isn't a problem at all. Even with a 5 ton baler with a full bale on a steep grade I can change gears and keep going without ever stopping or going backwards.
The newer tractors also have a wider torque range. This means that if you are going up a hill then you have extra torque that kicks in and gets you up the hill without shifting gears.
WhiteRock
Silver Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You can use a gear tractor the same as a hydro tractor. Instead of using the hydro pedal you use the accelertor pedal. It's no different than driving a car on slick or hilly conditions. )</font>
Is this really true? Perhaps for speed increases, but I would have thought (under load) that releasing the throttle will reduce power in percentage basically proportionally, also reducing torque. On a hydro if full RPMs are set, then full power is available to the hydro. As you release the hydro pedal, the hydraulic flow slows, the pressure goes up on the hydraulic motor because the engine is still producing full power. A this point the hydro is acting like a torque multiplier (PSI* CID). I believe there is a difference. Is this not correct?
Perhaps if the throttle is not released by more that 15% during the gear change the new gear multiplies the torque in the equivalent range I guess it would be the same. Is this what you are saying?
This of course assumes engine hp the same, final gear ratios are the same past the transmission.
Is this really true? Perhaps for speed increases, but I would have thought (under load) that releasing the throttle will reduce power in percentage basically proportionally, also reducing torque. On a hydro if full RPMs are set, then full power is available to the hydro. As you release the hydro pedal, the hydraulic flow slows, the pressure goes up on the hydraulic motor because the engine is still producing full power. A this point the hydro is acting like a torque multiplier (PSI* CID). I believe there is a difference. Is this not correct?
Perhaps if the throttle is not released by more that 15% during the gear change the new gear multiplies the torque in the equivalent range I guess it would be the same. Is this what you are saying?
This of course assumes engine hp the same, final gear ratios are the same past the transmission.
PineRidge
Super Member
A few other members have already mentioned that hydro loss is minimal at worst. I really don't think you could tell the difference without using instruments one way or the other out in the real world.
TC-40D SS web pictures click here
TC-40D SS web pictures click here
_RaT_
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Or for many of us here Mike, really care to much about the loss.
