Major problem with springhouse!!!

[Boondox]

Oh crud! I have a cracked fitting on the intake end of my water manifold in the basement, so went up to the springhouse to close the old ball valve so the basement won't flood when I pull the line off the fitting. Found the springhouse, but the valve was DOA! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Here's the picture:

We have a six by six concrete cistern a quarter mile up the hill over a spring. Nice little springhouse on top to keep critters out. At the bottom, a half inch copper pipe passes thru the concrete to a small hemlock box outside where the ball valve used to live. But the copper pipe corroded on both ends. On the inside of the springhouse we can see about two feet of copper pipe laying on the sandy bottom not connected to anything. On the outside, in the hemlock box, we can see the PVC pipe coming up from the house...and the corroded end of the copper pipe broken off flush with the concrete...but the heavily corroded ball valve, a coupling, and a reducer were just laying in the box not attached to anything. The only reason we still have water is it leaks out of the cistern into the hemlock box where the bare end of the PVC picks it up and carries it to the house below. But that won't work for long, as we're losing most of our water into the ground!

Our backup water supply is gone. The small dam with an intake for potable water was destroyed last year by a microburst that gave us 7.5" of rain in two hours. The raging creek scoured itself clean and all the timbers and water lines were carried away. So I have to fix the springhouse.

It looks like some sort of patch job where the copper pipe passes thru the concrete, like someone in the past drilled thru the cistern and put that pipe in there. Can I do that again? Is there some substance that would "set" around the pipe in such a damp location? Or should I just thread a 3/8" PEX line thru the broken copper pipe, install an new ball valve and reducer, restore the connection and be done with it?

I don't need pressure from the springhouse as it's only filling a 700 gallon cistern in the basement. From there, a shallow well pump charges the household system. So a steady trickle around the clock works for us.

If I can't fix this we're shafted! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[theonlybull]

should be able to drill, beat, grind, or do something to get a new line though the same hole. if not, there is stuff that will set i **** locations, just a matter of finding it.

 

[v8dave]

First choice.
If you can run a 3/8' pipe/line through the existing hole. Do so and feed enough line to reach above the surface of the water to work on.

Try to make a gasket around the end of the line and pull it back to seal the area around the hole, inside the cistern, so you don't get too much leakage. For instance; swedge a disk around the end of the line and put some plumbers putty around the 3/8" line at the disk and pull the line back, the plumbers putty will squish into the voids (and might seal it up). Clamp the outside end of the line to keep some tension on the line so it won't loosen. Cut off the now excess pipe and hook it up. A rubber disk would do the same thing but isn't as likely to seal as well or as long.

Third Choice.
Or a less desirable choice is to make a concrete box outside the cistern around where the pipe "used to be." Concrete will cure under water, e.g., bridge footings. Although, you need something to keep the cement from floating away during the cure.

You can make a concrete box on the outside of the cistern containing a new outlet valve and it will cure while wet. Drill some holes for bolts into (not through) the cistern to tie the concrete to. Use a plastic box as the inside form. Size the "new" valve larger than the leakage rate and leave it open until the concrete cures. If you make the new box with a sealable lid, you can use wood forms inside until after the cure. Be wary of the concrete base leaching out of the new box into your drinking water. That's why they add acid to new gunnite (concrete) swimming pools--to neutralize the strong base leaching out of the gunnite.

Second Choice.
Drill the new outlet into the cistern and make the concrete box as above to seal off the old hole.

If you don't choose to use the existing hole, you might be able to temporarily seal the inside of the cistern while you're working on the outside with some sturdy plastic garbage bags on the end of a stick. Put something soft inside the plastic bags that will keep them from being sucked through the hole, but will allow a seal. Sand comes to mind as it won't harm much if the bag tears.

I'm sure others have even more clever ideas. But the top one above, if you have access, is easy to try and has almost no downsides.

 

[Egon]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>If I can't fix this we're shafted </pre><hr />

No your not Pete cause you can fix it.

Think I'd try to drill / chisel out a larger hole . Then run a larger piece of plastic pipe through the hole. Use a rubber gasket [ old tire etc. on each side od the cistern . cut out holes in the gasket for the plastic pipe to go through. Install the inside gasket and pipe - fill with some home brew concrete that has lots of portland in it [ no ready bagged mix ] - slip on the outside gasket to keep the concrete in place and let it cure.

For the water supply line run another plastic inside the first - use a plastic shutoff valve - connect to your house line - seal the area betweeen the two pipes with silicone.

You may also be able to find a ventable plumbers plug which can be installed and then attach the house system to this.

Copper and concrete do not do well together and will corrode.



web page

Something like this. Most hardware stores should carry the plugs at a reasonable price. If you use one of these It's best to drill a new hole in the cistern. There are concrete hole saws available.

web page

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Donman]

How about trying a copper street 45 and push it inside the broke off pipe and then plumb a new valve from there. Doesn't sound like you are working with a lot of pressure.

 

[Birdman]

Is there some substance that would "set" around the pipe in such a damp location?

I have used this before and it works well. hydraulic cement
It should be easy to find at about any hardware store, comes in a small bucket if I remember correctly.

 

[Boondox]

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys! Wow, what a wealth of knowledge we have on TBN!

It looks like the copper pipe was added after the original cistern was in place judging from the approximately two inch diameter patch of some sort of masonry around it. And Egon had it right; I've never seen copper so badly corroded. I was thinking the tank would have to be drained before I could effect repairs, but will explore some of the options mentioned. One problem is the water is about 3 feet deep and 34 degrees! My hands start cramping after a while so I definitely want to work from the outside and stay dry!

 

[Deerlope]

could you sart a big siphon like 4" to keep the water low until you get the repair done. When you do repair it use plastic pipe. Certain water condition will destroy copper pipe.