Math Guru Needed

[Bird]

Yep, Norris, I heard the story of the round pie and square cornbread about the same time I learned what pi was when I was a kid in Oklahoma. I've also heard it in Texas; didn't know it had spread farther away. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

As a kid, I learned to calculate square roots with pencil and paper, later with a slide rule, and now for many years, a calculator or computer. I've forgotten how to do it with pencil and paper. But I have an uncle who is 85 years old that I'll bet could tell me. He was the best carpenter I've ever known; probably the only full time carpenter I've known who was never "unemployed" or "between jobs"; simply had to quit to even take a vacation. But I remember him telling me when I was just a kid that he once overheard two carpenters talking on the job about another carpenter and one of them said, "He's so dumb I'll bet he can't figure square roots." My uncle said he thought about that and realized that he'd forgotten how to do it, but said he went home that night and found out how to do it and had never forgotten again. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[bugstruck]

Bird, that's how I learned it, by hand, then slide rule, and now the calculator. Tell you what I do forget is most of the trig formulas. That's a use it or loose it for most of us. Now I can jump into Autocad, create the shape and measure it. So the computer is doing the trig for me.

Honestly, most of the workers calling themselves Carpenters now-a-days wouldn't qualify in most real mechanics minds. Just ask your Uncle. The older Carpenters who didn't possess the math skills your Uncle had, were better at using framing squares and the like to work-around calculating the math. Many of them were at least pretty fair at their game. Today they either have it or they don't and those who don't generally haven't aquired the work-arounds either. Basically they are crippled at that point and in need of nearly perpetual direction. Sad really. Not to say there aren't very talented young Carpenters out there. Just way fewer of them with much weaker help, and way more work being put in.

Bear with me a moment while I cleanse myself....Construction is an odd business. With all the advances in tools and the like, jobs take measurably more man-hours than they did even 20 years ago. Allot of that is the short schedule cycles and all the degreed professionals that have infiltrated the office side of the equation. General Contractors are so top heavy now it's incredible. And the Subs have to staff up to keep up with all the extraneous activity. We are all still doing the same thing as we did a few decades ago, at considerably more human investment. So a school you could do a heavy renovation on in 1983 for $1.5 M is a $12 M job now, or real close. Carpenters made about $13.00/hr then and $19.00 now. So figure that one out???? A plethoria of inefficiency has migrated into the business. Mainly at the top with some at the bottom.

When I point that out to the younger, well educated workers, they say it's mostly gov't regualtion and insurance carrier requirements and the like. Nonsense. That may account for 7 or 8% at absolute most, to the escalation of construction costs. No regulator or insurer made all the pre-con positions or LEEDS specialists, etc., etc.. In our day the technology moved and the Project Managers, Superintendents, and the workers figured it out. Now they are so dumb (not) that they need entire managment and support teams to put in even a 50 seat restaurant. Whew, that's brilliance, efficiency, and progress.!! Just not the sort any other line of business would be compensated for, or even allowed to survive by.

Now you know why governments are struggling in a huge way with Capital projects. The costs are outstripping even their ability to bleed us.

 

[EddieWalker]

bugstruck,

Thanks for your input and advice. Unlike you, I'm just a novice that doesn't know enough to know what I can and can't do, so I sort of figure it out as I go along. I've never been able to figure out my measurements without mocking things up and wasting way too much time doing my calculations.

On big jobs, or spec homes, I hire a crew to do the framing. Before I hire them, I look at their work to see how good they are. Price really isn't an indicator of skill. The first thing I look at is the tightness of their cuts on the roof. Especially a hip roof. Some framers will have all sorts of gaps in their angles, others get it just right every time!! Framers who get their cuts nice and tight also have their walls perfectly straight!!!

One of the best guys I know is also one of the cheapest. The reason is he's a drunk and a gambler who's totally unreliable for long term jobs. If you can deal with him, not pay him until he's finished with something, then his work is outstanding. Most contractors won't deal with him, so his rates are that much lower to get work.

I agree with you completely that wasted time is the biggest reason for higer costs on all construction jobs. I've been told to slow down from other guys on jobs that I've been on. They said it's taken them years to get things the way they want it, and I better not ruin it for them. Union jobs are the worse!!! And I was a shop steward for 8 years with 13 years seniority when I quit, but that was a different industry. Not construction.

I built my current house almost by myself in 5 months to the point it is livable. Another week or two of work and it would have been completly done, but I've been working on digging a lake instead. If I didn't have to clear trees for roads and power lines, install 700 feet of a six inch water main and build a 1,200 amp pedistal for my electricity, I think I could have finished the house totally in that much time.

To have a house built by subs in 4 months is next to impossible. Nobody wants to work more than 6 hours a day, and 5 days of work in a row in unheard of. When I'm on a job that I bid on the overall job, I want to get it done as fast as possible to the point I'll work ten to 12 hour days, six days a week. But I guess that's just me.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Eddie

 

[bugstruck]

We may still be working in the current era, but guys over say 45 are from a different time. You had to work hard and be reliable or you didn't have any work. There was less to go around then. You're observations are basically the same as mine or visa-versa. My reference to inefficiency, is much worse on the Commercial, Institutional, and Industrial side of the business. That's where we've spun fully out of control, in an effort to implement unnecessary -or- at minimum, unproductive controls. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif That's comical actually... when you back off of it. On the spec home, remodeling, and custom home end of the business you fight the quality of personnel issues as you commented, among others. But at least someone isn't saying you need three additional people to make sure you, the Project Manager/Owner, can do your job.

You said you're a novice. No businessman I ever met was that. Perhaps I wouldn't call you a Carpenter, but having run my own deal back in the 80's and 90's, I know anyone that takes that risk on has some real abilities. I fortunately made a living at it , some didn't, but even most of the one's who failed had a good dose of talent. It's a much tougher business than people are inclined to think.

Construction is about dirt, concrete, masonry, steel, etc., etc.. At the end of the day, putting that product in place is what your paid for. There is only one group of people that can make that happen, the workers, foremen, and supervisors. You must have a P.M. to run the paper/organizational side and a Superintendent to manage the jobsite. Anything beyond that for a pure GC, is usually a bleed on the producer side of the equation. Finally, the guys like you or I, who are pointing this out, are gettilng some traction. Three or four years ago, this wasn't considered a viable theory as there was no way imaginable that pumping more professionals at a problem could make it worse. Well, industry outsiders have clearly pointed it out now and suddenly, what a few of us were saying for a rather long time, is being pondered at least. The test is whether the new breed of Managers and Executives are smart enough to implement methods that run somewhat contrary to what they were taught. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Guess I've digressed this thread far enough. Weren't we talikng rafters... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[sandman2234]

Something to think about, in roof pitches, is what I have been learning the last few weeks. I have called quite a few roofers to come give me an estimate on replacing the shingles on my house. First day, out of 5 that showed up, 3 pulled into the driveway, never got out of the truck, and said, "We don't do those", or something similiar to that. I have a 7.5/12 with parts going at a 9/12 pitch. Not a common roof pitch for the south, since we don't have the snow problem. Most roofers here stop at 6/12 either due to convience, or insurance reasons, or something.
Prices for my roof are running just about twice as much, to three times as much for a similiar roof under 6/12.
Realizing the original poster was from the snow belt, I understand his reasons, but just wanted to make the southern people aware of another drawback with a steep pitch roof.
The guy who built my house was from the northeast also.
David from jax

 

[PILOON]

Have been reading this discussion.

My opinion from having build/renovated a fair amount over the last 15 yrs (even a 60 X 240' horse barn) is that trusses are generally the way to go!

Those truss factories (at least around here) can deliver a truss on site for about the same price that you and I will pay for the lumber.

Also it is dry wood and engineered for snow loads etc.

Today on large roofs we assemble the structure on the ground (often in 2 parts) and hire a crane for a couple of hours to put in place.

Getting quotes is as simple as giving outside dimensions (don't forget furring and siding) and wall thickness.

If you need clearance you can go for modified sizzor trusses.

Other methods will want long rafters that are possibly not standard as well as collar ties otherwise you will have sags.

In dimensions you show, you need some hefty 2x lumber while enginered trusses generally use mostly 2 x 4 and 2 x 3 stock.

If you attempt to build your own trusses you'll find lots of fireplace kindling leftover whilst the truss guys use it all.
They have the science down to about 4" scraps at worst.

My humble opinion.