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ChevyHDGert
New member
I took some pics of it last night and I will post them in a little bit.
Metal Pipe Fence Leaning
- Thread starter ChevyHDGert
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ChevyHDGert
New member
Here is the entrance I had put in....
The piece of PVC pipe is just to cover the metal gate rest to keep the horses from cutting their legs.
Now onto the lean problem...
Notice the backside of the concrete sticking up above the ground.
And the truck just for grins....although I want a new one
The piece of PVC pipe is just to cover the metal gate rest to keep the horses from cutting their legs.
Now onto the lean problem...
Notice the backside of the concrete sticking up above the ground.
And the truck just for grins....although I want a new one
RobJ
Elite Member
no expert but I wonder if the metal is expanding a bit to... interesting theory.
what do the installers say?
what do the installers say?
eTEXMan
New member
Just a guess, but it looks like an animal trail in the grass running along side the fence in some of the pics. Are there large hoofed animals in that field?
I've seen a LOT of fences of all types that are leaning out toward a road and in the majority there are horses or cows that are pushing on the fence trying to eat grass or just walk along it rubbing on it as they walk.
If that's the case, you'll need to reinforce your fence footings to keep them from pushing it back out once its straight.
As to straighting it up, I'd wait till the ground is real wet then use a couple of come-alongs to pull it back. Don't think you'll move the concrete in hard dry dirt without bending or breaking something.
I've seen a LOT of fences of all types that are leaning out toward a road and in the majority there are horses or cows that are pushing on the fence trying to eat grass or just walk along it rubbing on it as they walk.
If that's the case, you'll need to reinforce your fence footings to keep them from pushing it back out once its straight.
As to straighting it up, I'd wait till the ground is real wet then use a couple of come-alongs to pull it back. Don't think you'll move the concrete in hard dry dirt without bending or breaking something.
wroughtn_harv
Super Member
When I was a kid I had blackheads along with acne. When I see posts set with concrete like yours have I remember the blackheads and my mom catching me and working them out.
Just like she would pop the blackheads out by putting pressure on the sides of the blackheads your soil is trying to pop the posts out of the ground. When the concrete has a ledge above grade then the ground has something to grab for pushing up and out.
Your expansive soil, the clay, shrinks as it dries out. It pulls away from your concrete footer, the cement around your post. Then when it gets wet it expands, bottom up. This action lifts your posts and pushes them toward the side with the least resistance, you get lean.
Add to this the expansion and contraction of the steel in the heat. There's a lot of movement there. Remember when they put the last piece of the Arch in St Louis together they had to apply ice because they were running late that day and every degree in temperature changed the size of the unit.
Up here in north Texas we have some of the worst of the expansive soils. I've fought it since I arrived. What I try to do is not have the ledges on top. I also make sure the holes are free from loose dirt when I set my posts. Loose soil will pack and shrink when wet and the post will sink. I also make sure I'm not drilling cone shaped holes. That gives the soil leverage when it comes to pushing the post up out of the ground.
I don't get leans in my fences. But I still get up and down movement. It drives me crazy but it is what it is. Where I'm building the barn by myself there's hundreds of feet of ornamental iron fence that I built seven or so years ago. It's put together as prefabricated panels from Payne Fence attached to posts with brackets and screws. The fence is still nuts on for straight and height. The soil is sandy loam and doesn't move.
As for your problem. You could come along with a twelve or sixteen pound sledge and smack the bejezzuz out of the posts a couple of inches above the concrete. That will break the concrete ledge and remove that. I'm not too sure about the putting the sand in the gaps you have around the posts now. That's because when it rains and the ground expands I can see the sand acting as a lubricant enabling the clay to lift the post easier than before.
Braces and anchors can't be put on the inside because they present a hazard to livestock. You can't do it on the outside, first because it's in the right of way and it isn't your land. Chances are most likely anymore there's buried utilities in the right of way and you damage one of those and you're in trouble.
What you could do is rent a jackhammer or tamper with a compressor. I would start in the middle of the line and pull one post straight. I would tamp or jackhammer the existing soil down as far and as tight as I could. The engineers will tell us if my idea of using the soil there is the right thing to do. I think it is.
When that post is finished I would move over to the next post and repeat it. The third post done would be the one on the opposite side of the first one completed. I would go down the line alternating like that until the line was finished.
If you decide to follow my advice and you're chewing up nails and spitting out screws as you do so consider the fact that farms in the east that have been farmed since the seventeen hundreds will occasionally have a big boulder appear in the field. Daddy Dirt doesn't like foreign objects in his playground. Your concrete footer is not unlike that big boulder. Daddy Dirt will work to remove it. Especially if Daddy Dirt is an expansive soil.
Just like she would pop the blackheads out by putting pressure on the sides of the blackheads your soil is trying to pop the posts out of the ground. When the concrete has a ledge above grade then the ground has something to grab for pushing up and out.
Your expansive soil, the clay, shrinks as it dries out. It pulls away from your concrete footer, the cement around your post. Then when it gets wet it expands, bottom up. This action lifts your posts and pushes them toward the side with the least resistance, you get lean.
Add to this the expansion and contraction of the steel in the heat. There's a lot of movement there. Remember when they put the last piece of the Arch in St Louis together they had to apply ice because they were running late that day and every degree in temperature changed the size of the unit.
Up here in north Texas we have some of the worst of the expansive soils. I've fought it since I arrived. What I try to do is not have the ledges on top. I also make sure the holes are free from loose dirt when I set my posts. Loose soil will pack and shrink when wet and the post will sink. I also make sure I'm not drilling cone shaped holes. That gives the soil leverage when it comes to pushing the post up out of the ground.
I don't get leans in my fences. But I still get up and down movement. It drives me crazy but it is what it is. Where I'm building the barn by myself there's hundreds of feet of ornamental iron fence that I built seven or so years ago. It's put together as prefabricated panels from Payne Fence attached to posts with brackets and screws. The fence is still nuts on for straight and height. The soil is sandy loam and doesn't move.
As for your problem. You could come along with a twelve or sixteen pound sledge and smack the bejezzuz out of the posts a couple of inches above the concrete. That will break the concrete ledge and remove that. I'm not too sure about the putting the sand in the gaps you have around the posts now. That's because when it rains and the ground expands I can see the sand acting as a lubricant enabling the clay to lift the post easier than before.
Braces and anchors can't be put on the inside because they present a hazard to livestock. You can't do it on the outside, first because it's in the right of way and it isn't your land. Chances are most likely anymore there's buried utilities in the right of way and you damage one of those and you're in trouble.
What you could do is rent a jackhammer or tamper with a compressor. I would start in the middle of the line and pull one post straight. I would tamp or jackhammer the existing soil down as far and as tight as I could. The engineers will tell us if my idea of using the soil there is the right thing to do. I think it is.
When that post is finished I would move over to the next post and repeat it. The third post done would be the one on the opposite side of the first one completed. I would go down the line alternating like that until the line was finished.
If you decide to follow my advice and you're chewing up nails and spitting out screws as you do so consider the fact that farms in the east that have been farmed since the seventeen hundreds will occasionally have a big boulder appear in the field. Daddy Dirt doesn't like foreign objects in his playground. Your concrete footer is not unlike that big boulder. Daddy Dirt will work to remove it. Especially if Daddy Dirt is an expansive soil.
Scotty370
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I wish I had such problems! What an absolutely beautiful place you have! I'd luv it in a heart beat! "Leaning fence? What leaning fence?" Don't think I could get use to your heat though. How much snow and frost heave did you say you got? Oh yeah, one at a time with a come-a-long. Sorry! ~Scotty
two_bit_score
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wroughtn harv, I'd say you are dead on. I'm no expert at fence leaning except I drive around Texas a lot and I see leaning metal fences everywhere. More leaning pipe fences than any other kind. Several factors play into that I think but most are not in an area which freeze-thaw would come into play much so I attribute it to normal soil movement from getting wet and drying and - maybe the posts are not deep enough? The concrete also is probably not belled ath the deep end either but just poured straight down a cone shaped holeand leveled out on top of the ground leaving the 'shoulder' for the ground to push up against.
My question, since you are more knowledgeable on pipe fencing than me, is if it would solve the problem if you only poured the post hole about half full and covered the rest with soil and tamped it well on top of the 'crete and had a 'bell end' at the bottom? Also how deep would that hole need to be to prevent upheavel?
Sure seems a shame to spend so much on a pipe fence and then have it lean because it was not put in deep enough or something else preventable at the time built.
My question, since you are more knowledgeable on pipe fencing than me, is if it would solve the problem if you only poured the post hole about half full and covered the rest with soil and tamped it well on top of the 'crete and had a 'bell end' at the bottom? Also how deep would that hole need to be to prevent upheavel?
Sure seems a shame to spend so much on a pipe fence and then have it lean because it was not put in deep enough or something else preventable at the time built.
two_bit_score
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Thanks for the pics. That is a very nice fence and is not leaning nearly as bad as most pipe fences I see along Texas roads.
mjncad
Super Member
Harv:
That's the first time I've heard the analogy of zits to fence posts. Like you I had those pesky blackheads as a kid, so I can relate.
Thanks for this evening's chuckle.
Your fence looks like the pances that are sold at go bob pipe. Although I think their fence panels have explansions joints to compensate for expansion and contraction to prevent bowing.
GoBob Pipe and Steel - Continuous Fence
The owner gives a good demo video that explains how they install the panels. Maybe the heat and soil combined? I'm pretty sure this drought is affecting you guys up there as well. Don't let all that Bluebell melt!
GoBob Pipe and Steel - Continuous Fence
The owner gives a good demo video that explains how they install the panels. Maybe the heat and soil combined? I'm pretty sure this drought is affecting you guys up there as well. Don't let all that Bluebell melt!