Minnesota Moose problems

   / Minnesota Moose problems #41  
I agree with the money, if it were not for hunters big game would not exist today. Peta and the humane society contribute zero to habitat preservation or construction, it is the hunters that pay the bills.

Peta and the humane society will never admit that even though they get to enjoy it. The efforts to reforest the eastern half of the country were largely due to hunting habitat (forget that it also soaks up some of that nasty CO gas). A pretty accurate article on the Pittman Robertson act (1937):

Pittman

The excise tax on all hunting/fishing equipment is still in place btw.
 
   / Minnesota Moose problems #42  
Not a fair comparison. With the introduction of modern firearms in the mid 1800's, Europe pretty much eradicted its game populations (much like we almost lost the American bison and wild turkey and had a few other species on the teeter totter, including white-tailed deer) and they never recovered in sufficient numbers. With nothing to hunt, people quit hunting and it is no longer part of their life-style. The US is a huge landmass and was sparsely populated when the concept of wild-life manangement came into being (1930's or so). There is $$$ in keeping stuff to shoot at. Like it or not, money talks.

I agree with the money, if it were not for hunters big game would not exist today. Peta and the humane society contribute zero to habitat preservation or construction, it is the hunters that pay the bills.

Huge landmass is relative to how intensively it's used. PETA and the Humane Society are focused on other priorities I believe.

Hunters pay for and support wildlife management in a primarily quid pro quo arrangement. Save the ducks so we can hunt them. Pay to kill the wolves so we can hunt what wolves naturally eat. I have nothing against hunting, but the reality is that hunting dollars are aimed at preserving hunting first and foremost.

There are two facts that will push the US toward looking very much like W. Europe: population growth and habitat loss.

The (recently revised downward) US population growth projections put our population at 400 million in the year 2050-51, 430 million in 2060. We certainly have some sense of what it meant to habitat, hunting and wildlife in general, for the US population to go from 181 million in 1960, to 317 million now. That time span is within the lifetimes of many TBN members. Or, use 250 million in 1990 for younger member's comparisons.

With population growth habitat loss is practically a given. We are doing very little, practically next to nothing, to lower the impact of rising population on habitat. There is no grand plan or consensus. No nationally identified priorities of what can be saved where, and what cannot. We are on auto-pilot for the most part. Not to mention the many who resist any form of national direction as an imposition on their 'freedoms.'

If there is no plan or forsight, then how do you know where we will end up, or that a comparison to W. Europe is unfair?

Rates of Deforestation & Reforestation in the U.S. | Education - Seattle PI
The United States lost an average of 384,350 hectares (949,750 acres) of forest each year between 1990 and 2010. A total of almost 4 million hectares (10 million acres) of timber is harvested each year, but most of that timber regenerates and remains classified as forested land, albeit at a different successional stage. So the deforestation here refers to lands that are converted from forest to some other purpose. Deforestation could increase in the future because tree pests and diseases such as bark beetles are becoming more prevalent in the face of climate change.

Look at any type of habitat in the US and you find outright loss due to development, agriculture, mining, energy development, water management, fragmentation, invasive species limiting the usefulness to native wildlife, and deterioration and disease caused by other human activities.

Hunting dollars are not stopping that. Hunting interests certainly can and do exert some persuasion, but they cannot do it alone. It requires a coalition of groups with similar goals, that are willing to bend a little for the sake of unity. The people who wish to preserve wolves, maintain healthy forests, set aside conservation lands, and restore rivers are the best friends hunters will find.
 
   / Minnesota Moose problems #43  
Peta and the humane society will never admit that even though they get to enjoy it. The efforts to reforest the eastern half of the country were largely due to hunting habitat (forget that it also soaks up some of that nasty CO gas). A pretty accurate article on the Pittman Robertson act (1937):

Pittman

The excise tax on all hunting/fishing equipment is still in place btw.

Without habitat wildlife preservation is not possible.

The efforts of restoration and preservation of Eastern forests began in 1911 with the passage of the Week's Act. The Act was a response to the utter destruction of forests (and rivers & wildlife) in Northern New England during the latter half of the 1800's.

New Hampshire Forests | Wildlife Journal Junior
USDA Forest Service - Caring for the land and serving people

The forerunners to recognizing the need to preserve habitat came as early as the mid-1800's.

1847, George Perkins Marsh, Vermont congressman:
"Injudicious destruction of the woods," "improvident waste," "want of foresight in the economy of the forest ... in many parts of New England"

1854: Henry David Thoreau's Walden.

1864: George Perkins Marsh's Man and Nature.
It is one of the first works to document the effects of human action on the environment and it helped to launch the modern conservation movement. Marsh argued that ancient Mediterranean civilizations collapsed through environmental degradation. Deforestation led to eroded soils that led to decreased soil productivity. Additionally, the same trends could be found occurring in the United States. The book was instrumental in the creation of Adirondack Park in New York and the United States National Forest. Gifford Pinchot, first Chief of the United States Forest Service, called it "epoch making" and Stewart Udall wrote that it was "the beginning of land wisdom in this country."

1892: Preservationist and Father of the National Parks John Muir co-founded The Sierra Club

1905: Gifford Pinchot, first US Forest Service Chief. Advocated for sustainable use (continuous cropping) of forests.
 
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   / Minnesota Moose problems #44  
Where I think we will have a different outcome from Europe is that we saw it coming and took steps to "protect the franchise" with establishment of national, state and county parks. Hunting is still alive and well (at least around here) and in addition to government funds, there are several groups like Ducks Unlimited and Nat'l Wild Turkey Foundation that get a lot of money from sports people to support the franchise with habitat projects and the like. As for the population projections, I've never been to interior Maine but I doubt you will ever see that change (much like Wisconsin where so much of the acreage is already owned by the public). Brutal climates and having to figure out how to survive is not very appealing to people that call 911 because McDonalds was out of chicken McNuggets. They would be bear food pretty quickly and I think they will continue to pack into the cities.

We do have a big problem in the grain states because of our ethanol obsession which has driven up corn prices and has led to converting a lot of grass land to corn but I think the ethanol game is getting some heat now. As such we are seeing some "sirens" on pheasants and birds that depend on grass. I'm still studying the recently signed AG bill but loss of wildlife habitat (together with the food stamp program that for some strange reason continues to hide within the USDA budget instead of the HHS budget were it would be a better fit since the programs is no longer a means of feeding the hungry with surplus ag products) was a big part of why that took so long to pass.
 
   / Minnesota Moose problems #45  
Where I think we will have a different outcome from Europe is that we saw it coming and took steps to "protect the franchise" with establishment of national, state and county parks. Hunting is still alive and well (at least around here) and in addition to government funds, there are several groups like Ducks Unlimited and Nat'l Wild Turkey Foundation that get a lot of money from sports people to support the franchise with habitat projects and the like. As for the population projections, I've never been to interior Maine but I doubt you will ever see that change (much like Wisconsin where so much of the acreage is already owned by the public). Brutal climates and having to figure out how to survive is not very appealing to people that call 911 because McDonalds was out of chicken McNuggets. They would be bear food pretty quickly and I think they will continue to pack into the cities.

We do have a big problem in the grain states because of our ethanol obsession which has driven up corn prices and has led to converting a lot of grass land to corn but I think the ethanol game is getting some heat now. As such we are seeing some "sirens" on pheasants and birds that depend on grass. I'm still studying the recently signed AG bill but loss of wildlife habitat (together with the food stamp program that for some strange reason continues to hide within the USDA budget instead of the HHS budget were it would be a better fit since the programs is no longer a means of feeding the hungry with surplus ag products) was a big part of why that took so long to pass.

You are more of an optimist than I am.

I did a little reading on the Pittman Act. Since its inception, something like five million acres have been purchased for fee, and another ~45 million acres have some sort of conservation easements funded by the Act. Five million acres is not a large accomplishment over 70-80 years on a national scale. That is roughly equal to the area of Maine that is north of New Hampshire.

I notice the US House recently passed an amendment to the Act that would allow states to fund shooting ranges with the funding. That makes sense given that the tax is collected on non-hunting firearms. Non-hunting shooting supplies buyers are bound to ask what do they get from the tax. It does dilute funding of the original goals somewhat.

I don't expect much of that population growth to occur in remote rural areas either. Still, those additional people will require resources (food, water, energy) that will be derived from rural areas. They will also produce more downstream waste products that have to be dealt with somehow somewhere. They will want increased transportation support: roads, airports, rail, etc. Their impacts on the landscape will be felt at a distance, just as they are today even though they aren't living next door.

Three Maine examples are the desire to have a Canada to Canada east-west highway, the Irving Company pushing to do some open-pit mining in Northern Maine, and Plum Creek's housing-resort development around Moosehead Lake. Those are all unmitigated ecological disasters in the making. You cannot do those things and retain equivalent habitat quality. And they are all planned for basically the middle of nowhere.

It all adds up to higher intensity of land use and more negative side effects. We may see it coming, but that doesn't mean it is being avoided in truly meaningful ways. It is a continual nibble nibble nibble, slow motion train wreck that goes un-noticed by many people in a culture that is highly oriented to the short term.
 
   / Minnesota Moose problems #46  
So if I might ask (having wasted a lot of money so my youngest son could attend U Maine as a non-resident for reasons I never understood but that's our internal family rift, not yours)...I've visited the coastal regions of your state (and can only say WOW...great experience if people remember that they are guests which was not a problem for us but can imagine is a problem with those coming froming from the NE states below you).

As I understand it, there are parts of your state that are rarely (if ever) seen by man. Brutal winters, black flies in the summer! We as a country seem to have it figured out. It doesn't hurt that the hunting community has not been allowed to disappear like they did in Europe. While they tend to over-react to short-term events, better to hear it early than late. In Wisconsin we have a large DNR that is devoted to protecting the franchise.
 
   / Minnesota Moose problems #47  
So if I might ask (having wasted a lot of money so my youngest son could attend U Maine as a non-resident for reasons I never understood but that's our internal family rift, not yours)...I've visited the coastal regions of your state (and can only say WOW...great experience if people remember that they are guests which was not a problem for us but can imagine is a problem with those coming froming from the NE states below you).

As I understand it, there are parts of your state that are rarely (if ever) seen by man. Brutal winters, black flies in the summer! We as a country seem to have it figured out. It doesn't hurt that the hunting community has not been allowed to disappear like they did in Europe. While they tend to over-react to short-term events, better to hear it early than late. In Wisconsin we have a large DNR that is devoted to protecting the franchise.

There are some pretty people sparse places in Northern Maine. The App. Trail "100 Mile Wilderness" goes through such an area. Lots of large land tracts owned by timber companies, and more lately timber/land investment trusts, where there are no public roads. There are camps sprinkled here and there on 99 year land leases.

Maine has a huge number of second homes owned by our neighbors to the south. There are jokes and mild complaints, but that pattern goes back many generations. It's really more like extended family. A car with Mass., New Jersey or Conn. plates could well be children or grandchildren coming home for a visit. Or, returning to a summer camp that has been in their families for a long time.

The real conflicts happen when non-visitor suburban sprawl extends into what used to be mostly empty countryside. I think that is true most everywhere.

Second homes, rentals and tourism are very important factors in Maine's economy. That's why it makes no economic sense to allow the wild & clean nature of the state to deteriorate since that is why many visitors come here, and keep coming back.
 

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