More tractor life expectancy - but not the motor?

Soundguy · Jan 13, 2006

( Our 1978 Apple II+ still runs great after tens of thousands of boot ups and close to thirty years of operation.

)

Had it been 'parked' in the barn during those 30ys and bootups.. I'll bet it would be a different story.. since that is what we are talking about... tractor electronics...

Soundguy

daTeacha · Jan 13, 2006

Hmmm. All this talk about keeping the electronics cool and clean brings up a question in my mind. Just wondering, since keeping electronics cool and clean is pretty important, what measures have been designed in to keep the usual fine dust and such out of the places where the electrons play? I find dust in all kinds of places it shouldn't by rights be on mowers and tractors. The gnawing and nesting critters tend to get in places where you don't want 'em, too. I had a mouse nest under the air flow shielding on my small Cadet one winter. If I hadn't noticed some of the fluff sticking out of the shields in spring, it definitely would have had a detrimental effect on engine cooling.

I presume the ducting and whatever for airflow is going to be plastic in the current fashion and not metal. Does it have some kind of nasty taste built in to keep Mickey and his family from chewing it and ruining the dust protection and cooling air flow?

Soundguy · Jan 14, 2006

Unfortunately, mice and chewing critters will eat almost anything. And mouse urine -will- kill electronics. I've opened up a few home pc's and and engine module on a vehicle that had an electrocuted / trapped mouse in it... both died from the fluid release i presume, while the circuits were active. I'm guessing circuits using mosfets and other statig sensitive devices are way more 'fragile' athan a plain old n&p transistor and resistor circuit.. which may be able to surve a drenchinf if dried properly..

Soundguy

Soundguy

Bob_Young · Jan 15, 2006

( ( Chips/transistors don't wear out )

Respectfully.. I'd have to disagree with you.

Power cycles .. off/onn states and inrush are the detrimental times for an electronic device like a multi-transistored chip.

I don't worry too much about the basic discreet components.. like single packaged parts.. but IC's are iffy about heat and power cycles in the extremes and long term.. etc....

Soundguy )

Well, Chris, it pretty much depends on how good they want to make them. A lot's been learned in the last 30 years on how to make electronics survive in harsh conditions. As the scale of how much can be done on a chip has doubled again and again; so has the scale of what CAN be done on a chip. Chips now come with their own integrated protection circuitry. No longer do the chip manufacturers leave their product to the mercy of an unknown board designer. Beyond that there's Mil-spec components that are hardened against most anything and the age-old practice of over-engineering. Sure you've got off/on cycles, inrush and temperature extremes. But nowadays any or all of these can be covered with a few well spent dollars.

Add this to the fact that the electronic requirements of a CUT are quite basic compared to the average laptop and it's clear that, for not much money, it's possible to make CUT electronics survive normal usage indefinitely. Whether that's been done or not has to be determined. That's why it's got to be trouble-free for the first 10 years before I'd say the electronics themselves just aren't going to be an issue.

But the wiring harness is the Achilles heel of even the best tractor electronics. Susceptibility to rodent damage and vulnerability to fire damage remain. The connectors have gotten alot better and the insulation is incredibly tough; but not so tough as to resist flame or a starving rodent.

Actually, like you, I like the simple stuff; tractors I can diagnose and fix with my own two hands. The L4300 I bought recently is a case in point. It's as basic as my old Ford 4000.

Still you can't deny progress. It does raise a point, however, that if you do buy a high-tech CUT with lots of electronics; you should by it from a company with a record of success in applying the latest technology. That would limit me to products from the Big Three. Something built around a Z80 derivative with mid '80s circuit design might not go the distance even though it might work well enough for awhile.
FWIW
Bob

rambler · Jan 16, 2006

( Hmmm. All this talk about keeping the electronics cool and clean brings up a question in my mind. Just wondering, since keeping electronics cool and clean is pretty important, what measures have been designed in to keep the usual fine dust and such out of the places where the electrons play? )

They put the electronic parts together, & pour epoxy over the whole thing, making it a unit or component. Keeps the dust & dirt out, vibration is less of an issue. Problem is if something wears out, even a connector, it is very difficult ( well, impossible) to repair it, you need a whole new module. If they don't stock those modules any more.......

I'm not knocking electronics totally, it just changes the rules. The original question of this thread is, what will wear out / make obsolete your tractor first?

The answer is electronics. I've been down that path with farm equipment already. Got the tee shirt. Bearings & metal can be replaced. Electronics, in today's world, become obsolete & cannot be replaced.

Can you buy a reader to read those 8 inch floppy disks, or the Betamax tapes you have? Can you buy a computer module for an old car? (Friend spent $400 each on 2 used ones, because the OEM module was way more expensive, and the whole used car was only worth $2000.......)

The answer to the question is: electronics, with runner up to the spendy front wheel drive assemblies. Doesn't mean no one should get the front wheel assist nor electronic gadgets tho. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

--->Paul

Soundguy · Jan 16, 2006

( Something built around a Z80 derivative with mid '80s circuit )

Hey now.. don't be hating on those old z-80's processors /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I've got the electronics ( ray graphics included) from an old starwars video game.. It ran on a z80.. gotta love zi log

Soundguy

Soundguy · Jan 16, 2006

( They put the electronic parts together, & pour epoxy over the whole thing, ...is if something wears out, even a connector, it is very difficult )

I agree.. potted componets are tougher.. and as you say.. nearly impossible to fix. I have on occasion spent a day chipping epoxy away from a module that otherwise worked but had a broken connector... not a fun or easy job...

( The original question of this thread is, what will wear out / make obsolete your tractor first?
)

I agree. Another concern is overvoltage, and reverse polarity.

I know a previous post talked about on chip protection.. but even fuses and reverse diodes only go so far when you get eratic voltage. I've seen it all.. ac votlage out an alternator, reverse polarity battery instalations.. bad alternator putting out 17v dc.. etc.

While the electronics may be obtainable 20 years down the line.. they may be difficult to find.. or too darn expensive.

Case and point.. The lucas electronics on many older fords inteh 70's era. You are kinda stuck with the lucas genny due to it having the tach drive.. Here are your options... Hope it can be rebuilt.. or buy a remanned one.. ( very expensive ). or get an alternator replacement that has a specal tach drive for this purpose ( very expensive ).. or if you have a tractor model that has an accessory drive option.. like my 5000 does.. you might be able to find the accessory tach drive kit and add it to the engine block ( very expensive.. and a tad time consuming ).. Nice options /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy

flwiii · Jan 20, 2006

Those old TRS80 Color Computers were pretty good for the day. I have 1 that still runs using the OS/9 operating system. I also have one of the first portable computers from Compaq which looked like a small sewing machine case. It still functions also running DOS 3.1.

Electronics are affected by power on and offs, but the life expectancy is still greater than 30 years with the power ons and offs. Leaving the electronics live all the time is also an issue. The aluminum traces used in most CPUs etc. (before they switched to copper) will deteriorate until continuity is gone. Again, based on specs from Motorola and Intel, this is in the range of 30 plus years of constant use. The average rule of thumb for electronics is "if it runs for 90 days with no problems, it will run for the next 30 years".

HGM · Jan 24, 2006

( Case and point.. The lucas electronics on many older fords inteh 70's era. You are kinda stuck with the lucas genny due to it having the tach drive.. Here are your options... Hope it can be rebuilt.. or buy a remanned one.. ( very expensive ). or get an alternator replacement that has a specal tach drive for this purpose ( very expensive ).. or if you have a tractor model that has an accessory drive option.. like my 5000 does.. you might be able to find the accessory tach drive kit and add it to the engine block ( very expensive.. and a tad time consuming ).. Nice options /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy )

Ah...... The good old "Prince of Darkness"... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif You know, an old friend of mine explained to me one day why they used "iceboxes" in England for so long instead of refrigerators. It appears Lucas made the friges too /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

I dont think, for the most part, that there will be many problems with the better MFG's. It will likely be the ones who try to get it done cheaper that will have the most issues. Still, rodents, overchargingand overheating will probably be the most detrimental. With the internet, I think we'll be ok. It may be like allot of things out there anyhow, just buy a parts vehicle that somone else gave up on.

Farmwithjunk · Jan 24, 2006

I'll agree 110% that the electronics will be an Achilies heel on most tractors in time. But there's one more issue with todays crop of compacts and utilities. Transmissions. (And some of them combine electronics with mechanics, compounding the problem)

Many older "time-tested" designs are now getting too old, too expensive, and too worn out to keep in the field. Take John Deere's 4020 Powershift as an example. It is one of the most popular designs on a heavy duty farm tractor ever. They are worth well over their original purchase price. But when they reach a certain point, it becomes cost prohibitive to rebuild one.

Many of todays tractors have transmissions far more complicated than the old Powershift. Parts are going higher and higher with each passing day. Most of these "powershift" and/or hydrostat trannies require lots of attention and lots of costly parts when they start to fail. At some point, it just becomes too expensive to repair an old tractor. (Just ask any "restorer". Many an old antique tractor has seen 10's of thousands of dollars invested in a $5000 tractor)

And I'm not even talking about what I consider todays "throw-away tractors". (Cheap grey market models) They aren't practical to repair when they're NEW.

One thing that keeps all the "oldies" running is that there weren't a ton of options on them. Consider classics like the FarmAll h or M, The 2n/9n/8n Ford, Massey 30/35/135, ect. They had one, MAYBE two transmission options. The design stayed in production for decades, and they were simple enough that once they weren't worth the high cost of a dealer repair when something major went wrong, "Joe Wrench" could park it under a tree and rebuild whatever went wrong.

Try that with a todays "E-Hydro's".

I'm impressed with the technology of todays tractors, just don't believe you'll see thousands of them still "in the field" in 50 years.