Multi purpose tractor

[Robert M]

I would appreciate some advice on what tractor to buy.

I want a tractor to do all the normal jobs on a farm: dig post holes, lay poly pipe, rip a line for planting trees, cultivate to grow a crop, direct seed native grass into existing pasture. I would also like a cabin as it can get pretty cold (by Australian standards) at Delegate.

Key implements I would like are a front end loader and a heavy duty three point linkage grader blade (hydraulically adjustable and with some weight say 500 kg) and I like the idea of a frame mounted back hoe.

The problem I am facing is that I have been told I need 70-80 Hp to handle the grader but few tractors of this size have the option of a sub frame mounted back hoe. The other problem is not many of the tractors with frame mounted back hoes come with the option of a cabin.

The tractors I have been considering are:

Kioti Daedong - EX50CH (seems like a well optioned tractor at a good price) but too small to handle grader and not sure on quality of the back hoe which is a Taesung TS2385 but spec sheet I have is pretty short on detail

- like the idea of a larger say 70 to 80 HP Kioti with cab to handle grader but then don't have the option of a back hoe​

Kubota - L5740 with BH92 back hoe

this tractor has option of a cab but not with a back hoe​

back hoe looks to be good quality and strong​

dealer I have spoken to thinks this is big enough to handle the grader​

I am asking dealer why the option of cab and back hoe is not available (have read lots on the forum about pros and cons of back hoe with and without cab)​

John Deere 5083E Limited with cab and back hoe

has the power and size to handle grader, has frame mounted back hoe as an option, well optioned​

looks to be the strongest and biggest back hoe compared to Kioti and Kubota​

problem is price is about $20,000 more than what would pay for Kubota or Kioti equivalent if an equivalent was available ($20,000 difference is comparing cabin tractors of similar size without back hoe)​

other issue is that when I had test drive, the 5083 seemed quite high off the ground and wonder how safe it is driving around hills​

Mahindra was a tractor that I also thought might be worth considering, although initially had discounted as a lesser quality tractor, Yanmar a possibility but presence in Australia is pretty low.

I am surprised how hard it is to buy a tractor that does all I want, the need for more power to handle the grader seems to make it more difficult.

Appreciate any comments.

cheers
Robert M

 

[Fossil Farm]

With all the requirements you have listed, you should consider 2 tractors as a minimum. Maybe not purchase them at the same time depending on your budget, but prioritize what needs done now and later. You don't necessarily have to buy new either, of course that depends on what is available in your area. If backhoe work is done quite often, then a dedicated backhoe or trackhoe would be better than having to remove it all the time and then trying to setup the 3 point. There are many posts on this site about "what to buy" spend some time reading them and figuring out your priorities and budget. You have a good start, just take your time and you should be OK. Good luck.

 

[Gary Fowler]

My suggestion is to buy a used commercial grade backhoe like a 310 JD or similar. Here in USA they can be found in pretty good condition for less than $10K and will do much more than any frame mounted tractor backhoe. That way, you will always have it ready to go and not have to put on /take off when ever you need to do something else. It will cost you at least $7500 for a bolt on backhoe for a large tractor so why not invest a few thousand more and get a stand alone unit. Just check them for hydraulic leaks especially in the swing cylinders as those are the hardest ones to service. It might (probably will) be a little loose in the pins but a little slop is not a problem in most instances. The contractor who built my house bought a 310 JD in fair shape, no leaks for $8500 so they are out there at least in USA.

 

[rjwerth]

Here in the US, I've seen a Kioti RX6010 with a KB2485 backhoe on it...it is a bit small for that size tractor, but it is possible. The EX50 you are looking at is the same as my DK50SE. If this can't pull the grader you want, the Kubota won't either as it is about the same weight (don't think the additional HP will help you).

I'd look at your choice of graders...why do you wan the one you want? Can you use a shorter one? Is it the perfect implement for whatever it is you are doing? Just wondering as it sounds like you want a bulldozer based on the size of that implement.

 

[texasjohn]

Yep, I think it would help us if you described what you wish to do with the 3pt grader blade.....

There are numerous implements which are pull type which do various grader functions....perhaps one of those would be a good option...
Read on TBN the opinions people have of 3pt hitch grader blades.
They are hard to handle on uneven ground....people have added wheels to help keep the blade level.

often people find that the following in combination is what they need
boxblade
grader blade
road grader
dirt scraper

yes, it's important to match the attachments to the size tractor..also important to select the implements which best do the job you want done.

Personally, I'm highly biased toward Kubota

 

[Piston]

I'm not sure what is available in your area, but I also would suggest two different machines based on what you've mentioned.

Could you give us more specific examples on what you will be doing? The problem is that there is no do-it-all machine that is good for everything.
There are always going to be compromises of course, but two different machines would probably be better than a single do it all.

I'd think a dedicated backhoe or mini excavator (with dozer blade) as well as a good heavy tractor would be a good team together.

I have a pretty light weight, compact tractor, and a John Deere 410 backhoe and they make a good team together, however, my tractor is a bit on the small side for what I do. I'd recommend looking at used machines.

 

[MarkV]

I have to ask what you call a grader blade and how you want to use it. I pull both a boxblade and a 6' wide blade that angles and tilts with a 21 hp tractor, larger ones with a 40 hp tractor. If 70 t0 80 hp tractors are being recommended I have to think we are talking about different types of equipment.

MarkV

 

[MtnViewRanch]

As far as an all hydraulic rear blade, these are now made for as low as 35hp tractors. RBT35 Series Rear Blades | Land Pride My thinking is that your dealer is trying to sell you a BIG 1000+lb rear blade. Nothing wrong with them, I happen to have one and it works great, but you should have a larger tractor, 10,000lbs + to use one of them. But a unit similar to this Land Pride would work VERY well behind a 50hp machine. :thumbsup:

I too believe in a seperate dedicated commercial back hoe. You can get one within a few $$$$ of what the back hoe will cost you for your 50hp tractor that you want, and even old and worn out it will out dig what you are looking at.

A lot depends on what is in your area.

Good luck with your search and decision.

 

[MBTRAC]

Let's get back to basics, because this will determine the tractor/implement size & type :-

- What size farm ?
-How many acres do you want to cultivate & direct drill ?
- What crops do you want to grow ? Harvested by a contractor or... ?
- Hillside work as in cultivation or fencing or....?
- You seem to place a lot of emphasis on grader & backhoe performance, what do you intend to use these for ..road maintenance? site levelling, building? or ...?
- What's the primary use you envisage for the FEL ? e.g. loading loose material ? lifting hay/pallets? Clearing? Hard Digging?

As general recommendations:-
- Personally I would never fit a backhoe to an a Ag Tractor (except maybe on CUT on a hobby farm where I wanted to be "self sufficient"). IMO these backhoes are too light & slow for serious heavy work & potentially compromise the structural integrity of the Ag tractor by transferring stress loads (particularly in the hands of inexperienced/unsympathetic operators)........sure if you want to persevere you can dig a big hole with one, but it's going to take a heck of lot longer with any perceived saving usually offset by the extra fuel, combined with the greater wear & tear on the Ag tractor (& the operator).
- If you really think you need a backhoe consider a used industrial unit (which also provides you with a FEL) or maybe a Skid Steer f/w a detatchable backhoe (Skid Steers are also great for post hole work matched to hydraulic augers), but if you think you'll use a backhoe that much an excavator is likely the better option
- Dealers usually always try to steer towards what they have in stock or models with greater margins, rather than what is the best for the application
- Work out you farming needs first as there is a world of difference in capabilities between the 50-60-70-80hp ranges you're considering, purchase too small & it either won't do the job or take forever (with increased wear/maintenance)...too large & you'll compromise flexibility, capital & running costs (including implements)...etc in your operation.

 

[flusher]

JD 310 TLB or equivalent (pre-owned) for heavy duty backhoe work and a new 50-60 hp (pto) ag tractor with 6-ft FEL bucket, fully synchromeshed gear tranny, triple rear hydraulic remotes, heated/air conditioned cab.

Good luck

 

[txdon]

I was faced with the similar situation several years ago and went with the Kubota (50hp) with frame backhoe attachment. It does everything I need it to do on a hundred acres with trees, rocks, ponds, and gravel roads. I got the hard canopy with the BH as you found out the cab and BH are not compatible. We would like more info on the grader since that is the implement that needs the most HP. Any specific questions just ask. Make sure you get top and tilt hydraulic cylinders for your three point hitch.

 

[Robert M]

Thanks for everyone taking the time to reply.

More details on what I would want a tractor to do. We only purchased the property just over a year ago and have no livestock on it yet and wont until we move down ther in a couple of years. It is quite a big place 2300 acres but mainly for grazing and little to no cropping. I will sketch out the jobs I think I want the tractor for:

Cultivation
I don't know exactly what I want to do cultivation wise but expect only a small amout maybe 10 to 20 acres per year just with 3 point linkage cultivator and seeder.

General duties - pulling out posts, digging holes, levelling ground for water tank, lifting logs, loading gravel and soil and the implements I would need would be: slasher, front end loader with 4 in 1 bucket, post hole digger, poly pipe layer and ripper

I expect 50 Hp tractor would be fine for these jobs.

Backhoe work
Levelling site for water tank, digging hole for septic tank (about 2 metres or 7' deep), rubble drain that takes overflow from septic tank, trenching for running power to shed for about 100 m, trenches to take stormwater to rainwater tank, dig footings for house extension, dig out stumps, landscaping in our garden, dig in drainage pipes across road, dig trench across creek so can lay rock gabions to stop creek crossing washing away.

I think I would find lots of uses for a backhoe and generally I don't think I would need it to be as strong as a dedicated backhoe machine but a frame mounted one would be alot safer and productive than a 3 point linkage one. Our soil is mostly granite over clay andjust from digging with a shovel it doesn't seem too hard to dig, not lots of rocks except where have large granite outcrops and then it would not matter how big a backhoe I had. I would appreciate info telling me what these backhoes can do.

The backhoes I had been considering are Kubota BH77 and BH92 and John Deere 485 and 495 and for Kioti on (EX50CH tractor) KB2475 and KB2485. The JD 495 is the strongest in terms of digging force (bucket digging force 2515 kg and dipperstick 1393 kg not sure what these mean) and digging depth of 2.8 m, compared to Kubota BH92 of bucket digging force 2063 kg and dipperstick 1224 kg and digging depth of 2.8 m. This compares to a serious dedicated backhoe tractor eg. Case 580 which has dipper digging force of 3744 kg and digging depth of 4.6 m.

I don't think I would really need a dedicated backhoe but would appreciate any info on experience people have with using the frame mounted backhoes such as I am considering from JD and Kubota.

Grader work
We have a 5 km (3 mile) road to maintain. It is reasonably soft soil and erodes pretty easily so it needs regular maintenance to keep the water off it by having clean drains a good camber on it and perhaps some more pipes across the road where there are low spots. Our choice is to pay a contractor to grade it with a motor grader that will do a great job but cost $10,000 to $20,000 and will need to done every few years. The previous owners used to maintain the road with a small back blade but unfortunately the road needs more work to get it back to a good standard for a non 4Wd car.

From reading posts on this forum and others I am thinking that a heavy blade with hydraulically controlled adjustments and a depth wheel is the way to go. Something like a Berends 8' model with 3 rams (to adjust tilt, angle and offset) and a depth wheel to get a more even grade which weighs 550 KG. My understanding is that you need the weight to get a blade that wont be bent easily and that has the weight to dig in but the down side is you need a reasonable size tractor to pull it, lift it off the ground when travelling and to do this without unbalancing the tractor.

cheers
Robert

 

[MBTRAC]

I think you're under estimating your requirements @c.50hp. I know the Delegate area well & 2500acres is a reasonable size to need & well justify something bigger, particularly if you're maintaining c.5Kms of roads + considering slashing, clearing, building/site/remedial earthworks (e.g levelling, drainage, gabions), stump removal..etc:-

1.Grading 5kms of roads, maintenance & associated rebuilding/remediation work is hard on any gear, lighter blades will do it but you will constantly have hassles(i.e. trashed in c. 2-3yr & ongoing breakages in the headstock/frame), whilst Berends are ok even their heavy duty gear is too light for this sustained usage (below are photo's of the Challenge units we run for similar use, they've proven to go the "distance" & a worthwhile investment if it's to be a year in year out task...all hyd 3m 950kgs CatII/III req 70-170hp c$10k have replaced the motor grader we used to run).
2.FEL f/w a 4/1 if that's what you set on, also consider an attachment blade/root rake combo (maybe +angle/tilt) for clearing/road application & possibly a set of forks (for pallets, hay, fertiliser bags..etc) - for lifting capacity/frame strength also consider manufacturers like Burder, Nell & Challenge against the FEL's offered by the Tractor manufacturers
3.Post Hole Diggers - for 2500acres don't make a mistake by going with a PTO unit, a hyd auger drive unit is far superior & fit it with a quick hitch* to your FEL (the reverse function & variable speed drive makes them a better option than PTO ), & if you have many KMS of fencing to replace soon a commercial driver will pay for itself (not cheap though)
4. Slasher of sayc.2m+ is going to task less than a c.70hp tractor in heavy conditions
5. 10-20 acres of cultivation is neither here nor there, but it's hard to justify buying specific use gear for this size.

IMO two S/H well maintained units offer the value equation on a limited hour farming operation, rather than new as there are bargains out there :-
i). c.75-100hp 4wd Tractor f.w A/C & FEL @c.$40k (e.g Deutz DX4.30,Ford7840, Landini90, Kubota M100, M8540, JD5520, Case JX1080U @less than c.3500hrs which is est.half life)
ii) +a Skid Steer (i.e "Bobcat" type) machine which gives you the 4/1 & its functionality for road/farm/earthmoving/building with an industrial backhoe attachment(most robust than the 3PL/frame mounted ag units) @ c.$20k all up (believe me a skid steer will pay for itself many times over on earthmoving/farm tasks & fitted with the hyd post digger is all you need for fencing) vs an Ag tractor with a backhoe atttrachment (apart from the strength/durability/performance issues mentioned on my previous post changing a frame mounted or 3PL backhoe is a time consuming pain....no commercial farming operation runs them for these reasons). Or go down the s/h industrial backhoe path for c.$20k if you must, but understand backhoes have largely been superceded by excavators & are far more difficult offload (than excavators or skid steers..)

With 2500acres or c.10kms2 you also need to consider the practicalities of moving gravel/fill/materials/fodder around the property, one FEL Ag tractor (especially f/w a frame mounted backhoe) is going to make the use/loading of a trailer a protracted exercise., &.unnecessary repetitive exercises quickly turn many tasks into tedious chores on farms....

 

[bigdeano]

One big advantage of having two tractors is, if you get one stuck you have another one to pull it out.

 

[Gary Fowler]

My Kubota B 26 TLB is probably the easiest backhoe to remove in the world and takes about 10-15 minutes to take off, install the 3 point lift arms etc. This is a dedicated TLB and not an add on unit like most 3 ph or frame mounted backhoes. It also needs to be removed on a level pad to make hooking it back up easier. Some others here might comment on how long it takes to remove their BH and ready it for hooking up a 3 PH attachment.
While it may not seem like a lot of time involved, if everytime you need to use the backhoe, you have to remove whatever you have on the tractor, get square with the hoe and hook it up, you're likely looking at an hour wasted time. A frame mounted BH here in USA will run you in the neighborhood of $7500 for a new one and for about $1K more you can buy a nice commercial grade used backhoe that will be available whenever you need it AND it will dig deeper, carry more material in the FEL, lift more weight etc than any tractor mount will come close to. Even a 2 WD unit will work well in these big tractors but of course a 4 WD would work better in muddy conditions.
I love my B26 which I bought for specific purpose to maneuver into tight small areas and it is perfect for that, but I wish many times for a bigger bucket, longer reach, more power when digging stumps, or trying to reach out to clean out a ditch etc.

 

[Robert M]

MBTRAC
Thanks for your reply it has given me lots to think about.

I like the look of the challenge grader blades I am interested in your comment that you have replaced the motor grader with these. I was under the impression that the motor graders were the best but obviously a big investment. Can you tell me how they compare and what is the difference in the 2 challenge blades you attached to your post.

I have a friend with a skid steer and will have to have a look a bit more closely into what they can do. Are you saying you can use them for road building and maintenance? It sounds like they have lots of useful hydraulic attachements that you can add.

I will have a look at what is on offer interms of buying 2 second hand machines but a quick look there does seem to be some good buys in the 80 hp range.

thanks again
Robert

 

[MBTRAC]

Yes, self contained motor graders are in theory the "best" for roadwork, but once you work out cost/hr, capital replacement & maintenance , & then factor in they are complex requiring a highly skilled operator to make the most of them(after 35yrs on ag/earthmoving gear I still can't operate one anywhere near as well as I'd like), they sit in the shed most of the year, are very task specifc (fine grading/levelling rather than generally clearing/earthworks), & it's another large motor/set of batteries to maintain .....etc. @ $40k+ for anything decent it makes an expense limited use "toy" for our farms....we used to run Cat !2's & DRMCO's which are fairly large/robust machines & budgeted on 400hrs/yr across our farms, on average they cost c.$10k+/yr in repairs+ fuel+service/maintenance so it was well in excess of c.$100+/hr to operate + the wage of an operator + capital/replacement cost - no longer in my view viable equipment to own.

The two Challenge blades pictured are GT-300PH models (you may want to go smaller due to your road width/tractor size) almost identical, 3m width 70cm blade height hyd offet/angle/tilt, the only difference is one has hyd controlled depth wheels (whereas it's manual adjustment on the other unit, the hyd feature is nice for quick adjustment but largely unnecessary). These blades on a c.90hp tractor will do c.85%+ of what a motor grader will do, depending on the task they'll just take around c.30-40% longer to do it.....ultimately the capability of a grader it largely determined by the skill of the operator (& any fine grading task takes time to master, the key is to take it slow with small grades & multiple passes keeping the material "flowing" until you become more skilled, going too deep/too fast is damaging to equipment & leads to a poor result)......... once graded a few times, & after a few seasons depending on the condition of your roads it may be advantageous to use contractor with a compacting roller, or you may want to invest in a towable smooth or sheepsfoot roller@c.$3K (compacting will make roads last much longer & shed water if there suffer from bad corrugations/potholes/wet spots)... the Challenge guys are a helpful/knowledgable bunch & should be able to advise further Challenge Implements

As for skid steers, I wouldn't be without one on a farm, they're quite capable of assisting with road building (but won't replace a grader attachment) , drainage, landscaping, brush clearing, pile burning, fencing & general earthworks - equipped with a 4/1, a levelling bar, detachable backhoe & maybe a set of pallet forks I'm sure you'll find a multitude of uses. In combination with an Ag tractor FEL & using 3PL rippers you'll move a considerable amount of dirt/material.
As recommendations:
- stay clear of tracked units (complex high cost maintenance/tracks), wheeled are a far more viable owner/operator farm unit
- buy only recognised brands Case, BobCat, Toyota, Cat & maybe Mustang (some Korean brands are ok machines, but support/parts is woeful - as it is with industrial/non-ag JD, New Holland equipment in Aust.) & Komatsu's skiddies are a rare machine best avoided
- Controls are different on various makes/machines being hand/foot/Tbar so drive a few as it's an indivdual choice on what/how you like to operate
- 60hp is about the minimum for farm use & higher flow hydraulics can be an advantage for faster running post hole augers, backhoe, trenching attachments
- My preference is for non-parallel/non-vertical lift loader arms as we don't require the extra lift height & find the standard arms more robust in heavier pushing/digging functions

As you're finding, there's much better buying s/h in c.80hp+ Ag tractors as hobby farmers create artifical demand/prices for smaller gear, also with a larger tractor in most cases it has been operated & maintained by someone who knows what they're doing........not learning as they go...Also in my one of my earlier posts I didn't recommend New Holland 75-100hp for a good reason, whilst they're good tractors ( I own/ed a few) for slashing, clearing & anything where there's a good chance debris may get caught up/impact under the frame, unfortunately the wiring on most models is routed & too exposed under the frame damaging easily.
Good luck & don't hesitate to ask further questions.

 

[Robert M]

MBTRAC
From looking at the tractors you have recommended in an earlier post " c.75-100hp 4wd Tractor f.w A/C & FEL @c.$40k (e.g Deutz DX4.30,Ford7840, Landini90, Kubota M100, M8540, JD5520, Case JX1080U)" it looks like these are all pretty robust strongly built tractors, compared to the horticulture type tractors eg. Kubota M8200 narrow(saw advertised for $35,000 for 900 hrs with cab but no FEL) which has enough power at 85 HP (engine) 75 HP (pto) but appears to be much lighter weight machines and maybe not suited to grader type work.

I am reading this right?

 

[MBTRAC]

These are just examples of the tractors I'd be considering for your environment/operations - there are other brands/models out there that are just as good/robust, with s/h it all comes down to the condition of the individual unit - strong axles/gearbox/PTO/low RPM high torque engines & many geabox ratio's are attributes to seek for what you have in mind for one "Multi-purpose" Ag tractor.
As for "narrow" specs', fine for an orchard or vineyard as that's what they're specifically designed for, put them in undulations, mount a FEL or in grading road camber/drain work & you're asking for trouble (i.e. far greater risk of roll over). Generally the "horticultural" type tractors are "comfortable" in market gardens/level ground tilling & working regularly cultivated ground, put them in a paddock direct drilling, turning virgin ground or pulling heavy/higher drawbar pull ground engaging tools (e.g. graders, chisel ploughs) & the ownership experience isn't likely to be good....
Search for use units at
http://www.farmmachinerysales.com.au/
Gumtree
Clearing Sales (The Land is a good source)
& Tractordata.com will give broad specs of most tractor models

Be patience inspect/test a lot of gear (& go to clearing sales) before you purchase, take or pay someone with tractor/diesel knowledge on any unit you're considering purchasing & test the unit/all functions under heavy "loading for at least an hour or so to enable operating/higher temperatures to be reached.

 

[Robert M]

MBTRAC

A couple more questions.

I rang a local distributor of Challenge grader blades and they are quite pricey about $12,000 for the 2400 wide blade and no stock until March next year. Even though their brochure said this blade needed 60-90 HP, they were saying should have the top end of this range and that more power would be better.
- how does this fit with your experience and have you used with 80 HP tractors (sounded like you might have from earlier posts)?

This distributor also sells Mahindra and when I started at looking at these on their website and from comments on the Mahindra forum here it looks like they have a pretty good reputation and that they are solid and heavy machines with quite high lifting capacity on 3 Point linkage (quoting 2500 kg). They sell for $59,000 (inc GST) with FEL and cab compared to 80 hp of the type you were suggesting (under 2300 hrs) that seem to sell for $46,000 to $50,000 (inc GST with FEL) plus freight and no warranty eg. MF2235 2300 hrs $46,000 and JD5520 1100 hrs for $50,000. A JD5083E (cab and FEL inc GST) costs about $69,000. Of course the actual price you pay will depend on a lot of factors but this is a guide.

Have you heard much about Mahindras in terms of how they would compare to a good second hand 80 HP tractor with low hrs?