texasjohn
Super Member
My discussion relates to gooseneck trailers...... surely a properly installed gooseneck ball hitch on the Tundra would spec out over 1000 lbs tongue weight. Isn't the 1000 lbs on the bumper hitch?
MY new TUNDRA
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Charlesaf3
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good question, don't really know the answers though the lightish payload issue would still apply - 1650 minus you minus fuel.
Patches
Veteran Member
tj; I'm a little off on my GCWR
It should have read 16,000; not sure what I was thinking when I gave the 17,400 number(brain cramp) I don't know what confiruration truck you're considering, other than a long bed, as the payload/GVWR and towing capacity varies (2WD/4WD)and cab type. Payload goes from 2,065 on a 4x2 long bed regular cab to 1655 on a 4x2 long bed double cab. The payload for these in a 4x4 are 2000 regular cab and 1555 for the double cab.The GCWR for all of the above is 16,000, but the towing capacity of the 4x2 regular cab is 10,800 while the 4x2 double cab is 10,500. Add 4 wheel drive and these ratings drop to 10,500 and 10,200 respectively. I hope these more authoritative figures('07 Tundra brochure) are of use and I apologize for the misinformation
It should have read 16,000; not sure what I was thinking when I gave the 17,400 number(brain cramp) I don't know what confiruration truck you're considering, other than a long bed, as the payload/GVWR and towing capacity varies (2WD/4WD)and cab type. Payload goes from 2,065 on a 4x2 long bed regular cab to 1655 on a 4x2 long bed double cab. The payload for these in a 4x4 are 2000 regular cab and 1555 for the double cab.The GCWR for all of the above is 16,000, but the towing capacity of the 4x2 regular cab is 10,800 while the 4x2 double cab is 10,500. Add 4 wheel drive and these ratings drop to 10,500 and 10,200 respectively. I hope these more authoritative figures('07 Tundra brochure) are of use and I apologize for the misinformation
texasjohn
Super Member
Patches... thanks for the details... very good info.... appreciated..message is it varies depending on exact configuration. When I get ready to plop $$ down, I'll review from Tundra specs brochure and be guided by that... My preferred configuration would likely be 4X4 long bed. I need the 4wd, and to be able to tow stuff via gooseneck... heavy weight should not, ever, IMHO, be done via bumper hitch trailer. Transport of more people than a front seat can hold is not critical.
Charlesaf3
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why not do heavy weight on a bumper pull TJ? I'm trying to learn about heavy duty trailering, as am about to buy one and thinking of pushing the Tudras limits.
I'd put a weight distributing and anti sway on of course.
I'd put a weight distributing and anti sway on of course.
texasjohn
Super Member
Well, I've pulled lots of stuff with a bumper hitch before I had enough $$ to get a gooseneck trailer and install a gooseneck ball in the bed of my pickup.
I could simply not believe the difference. True, I didn't have weight distributing hitch, etc... but I strongly believe that the basic physics applies.
To me, a gooseneck is about 10 times safer than a bumper hitch.
A bumper hitch, because of physics, does all these undesirable things:
1) presses down on rear, making front end rise up, making steering much less sure under all conditions. This has happened to me
2) If you happen to unfortunately get into a bad situation and the trailer starts switching back and forth, then it starts wagging the rear end of your pickup and pulling it right and left, making steering extemely difficult. Only the very experienced driver can recover from this catastrophic oscillation, which tends to increase in amplitude until something or everything turns over. I was lucky, nothing turned over, but we swapped ends several times
3) if the trailer has any kind of dynamic load, cattle which can run from front to rear, or something breaks loose, or you were unableto get the right weight distribution on the trailer, then even in a straight line pull you can get front to rear trailer oscillation. Meaning that road conditions or whatever cause the front of your trailer to rise and fall.... making the rear of your pickup rise and fall with vigor because of the leverage of being attached several feet BEHIND the rear axle. This has happened to me
4) when items 2 or 3 occur, your natural reaction is to hit the brakes... bad decision...if item 2, then the trailer pushes your rear end forward and you make a V going down the road uncontrolled. If item 3, then front of pickup dives under braking pressure, rear rises up losing traction and trailer pushes it up further... bad things can happen... and do. This has happened to me
5) another response with items 2 or 3 can be to increase power in an attempt to straighten out the problem, but often you are already going faster than road conditions make safe and increasing speed only makes things worse. This has happened to me
Now, let's jump to the physics of a gooseneck. The attachment point is just in front of the rear bumper. Thus, the trailer:
1) presses down on all 4 tires, increasing traction, regardless of how trailer is loaded (almost impossible to get negative gooseneck pressure) because of distance between trailer tires and gooseneck attachment point. Thus, front end steering is more sure while rear axle traction is significantly increased.
2) if situation 2 above tries to start, it is hugely, hugely inhibited because the gooseneck hitch is just an inch or two in front of rear axle and right over it... thus leverage is nil... and side to side motion requires BOTH rear tires to move right or left. Honestly, this has NEVER happened to me when pulling a gooseneck.
3) for situation 3 above to occur, oscillation must start.... since there is so much down weight on the gooseneck, it is almost impossible to get a negative(up) force... even if you did, it would be lifting the entire pickup from a point in front of the axle, which is rather weighty... with no leverage. I've never had this happen, either, with a gooseneck.
4) if you percieve a problem and begin brakeing, then the trailer puts additonal down force right over the rear wheels, thus maintaining traction. Since the pickup is in a straight line with the trailer, jackknifing is extremely unlikely. The only gooseneck braking problem I've ever had came from momentum exceeding desired stopping distance, which has always been in a straight line
5) increasing power is a viable option because the long distance between gooseneck attachment point and trailer wheels tends to cause alignment of both vehicles on the road. It's comforting to know that your trailer is right behind you
Net... when I was pulling bumper hitch trailers, I was ALWAYS aware that they were there because of their constant action on steering, braking, attitude of the truck. Pulling a gooseneck, I only know it is back there because of the engine sound and modifed acceleration/deceleration because of load. I have never felt like a gooseneck was " getting away from me."
Charlesaf3, my extremely strong advice would be to obtain ONLY a gooseneck trailer and put a gooseneck hitch on any pickup where you are going to be pulling any significant load. I don't care if you are pulling a heavy boat, cattle, equipment trailer.... gooseneck is the only way to go. This is doubly true if you are planning on pushing the tow limits of the Tundra (or any vehicle, actually).
My final argument...go to any cattle auction or rodeo and look at what people are using. Talk to them about why they are using a gooseneck. ALL the people who are serious and have large loads have gooseneck trailers. Only the weekend people with a horse trailer for 1 to 2 horses for their 14 year old girls have a bumper hitch...pulled either with a car or light pickup...
I could simply not believe the difference. True, I didn't have weight distributing hitch, etc... but I strongly believe that the basic physics applies.
To me, a gooseneck is about 10 times safer than a bumper hitch.
A bumper hitch, because of physics, does all these undesirable things:
1) presses down on rear, making front end rise up, making steering much less sure under all conditions. This has happened to me
2) If you happen to unfortunately get into a bad situation and the trailer starts switching back and forth, then it starts wagging the rear end of your pickup and pulling it right and left, making steering extemely difficult. Only the very experienced driver can recover from this catastrophic oscillation, which tends to increase in amplitude until something or everything turns over. I was lucky, nothing turned over, but we swapped ends several times
3) if the trailer has any kind of dynamic load, cattle which can run from front to rear, or something breaks loose, or you were unableto get the right weight distribution on the trailer, then even in a straight line pull you can get front to rear trailer oscillation. Meaning that road conditions or whatever cause the front of your trailer to rise and fall.... making the rear of your pickup rise and fall with vigor because of the leverage of being attached several feet BEHIND the rear axle. This has happened to me
4) when items 2 or 3 occur, your natural reaction is to hit the brakes... bad decision...if item 2, then the trailer pushes your rear end forward and you make a V going down the road uncontrolled. If item 3, then front of pickup dives under braking pressure, rear rises up losing traction and trailer pushes it up further... bad things can happen... and do. This has happened to me
5) another response with items 2 or 3 can be to increase power in an attempt to straighten out the problem, but often you are already going faster than road conditions make safe and increasing speed only makes things worse. This has happened to me
Now, let's jump to the physics of a gooseneck. The attachment point is just in front of the rear bumper. Thus, the trailer:
1) presses down on all 4 tires, increasing traction, regardless of how trailer is loaded (almost impossible to get negative gooseneck pressure) because of distance between trailer tires and gooseneck attachment point. Thus, front end steering is more sure while rear axle traction is significantly increased.
2) if situation 2 above tries to start, it is hugely, hugely inhibited because the gooseneck hitch is just an inch or two in front of rear axle and right over it... thus leverage is nil... and side to side motion requires BOTH rear tires to move right or left. Honestly, this has NEVER happened to me when pulling a gooseneck.
3) for situation 3 above to occur, oscillation must start.... since there is so much down weight on the gooseneck, it is almost impossible to get a negative(up) force... even if you did, it would be lifting the entire pickup from a point in front of the axle, which is rather weighty... with no leverage. I've never had this happen, either, with a gooseneck.
4) if you percieve a problem and begin brakeing, then the trailer puts additonal down force right over the rear wheels, thus maintaining traction. Since the pickup is in a straight line with the trailer, jackknifing is extremely unlikely. The only gooseneck braking problem I've ever had came from momentum exceeding desired stopping distance, which has always been in a straight line
5) increasing power is a viable option because the long distance between gooseneck attachment point and trailer wheels tends to cause alignment of both vehicles on the road. It's comforting to know that your trailer is right behind you
Net... when I was pulling bumper hitch trailers, I was ALWAYS aware that they were there because of their constant action on steering, braking, attitude of the truck. Pulling a gooseneck, I only know it is back there because of the engine sound and modifed acceleration/deceleration because of load. I have never felt like a gooseneck was " getting away from me."
Charlesaf3, my extremely strong advice would be to obtain ONLY a gooseneck trailer and put a gooseneck hitch on any pickup where you are going to be pulling any significant load. I don't care if you are pulling a heavy boat, cattle, equipment trailer.... gooseneck is the only way to go. This is doubly true if you are planning on pushing the tow limits of the Tundra (or any vehicle, actually).
My final argument...go to any cattle auction or rodeo and look at what people are using. Talk to them about why they are using a gooseneck. ALL the people who are serious and have large loads have gooseneck trailers. Only the weekend people with a horse trailer for 1 to 2 horses for their 14 year old girls have a bumper hitch...pulled either with a car or light pickup...
Builder
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I'm not a weekend person and I bumper pull. I also pull a 10 ton backhoe off the bumper of a dumptruck.
A 5th wheel hitch is better for towing, but when you need the bed for a lot of tools or a dump body, it's not the right tool for the job.
A 5th wheel hitch is better for towing, but when you need the bed for a lot of tools or a dump body, it's not the right tool for the job.
texasjohn
Super Member
By golly... now that you mention it, I do concede that a dump truck makes a suitable bumper hitch tow vehicle, even for real loads, which 20,000 lbs actually is. But I don't have one in my hip pocket...or garage, either.
What would your recommendation be for Charlesaf3 who is "trying to learn about heavy duty trailering, as am about to buy one and thinking of pushing the Tudras limits."
Bumper or gooseneck? I vote gooseneck.
His profile indicates he has lots of equipment, which I assume he is needing to haul... thus " pushing the limits" of the 16,000 GCWR Tundra.
What would your recommendation be for Charlesaf3 who is "trying to learn about heavy duty trailering, as am about to buy one and thinking of pushing the Tudras limits."
Bumper or gooseneck? I vote gooseneck.
His profile indicates he has lots of equipment, which I assume he is needing to haul... thus " pushing the limits" of the 16,000 GCWR Tundra.
Builder
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I think it all depends on how much bed space he needs. If he wants a bed full of tools, supplies, equipment, then the answer is pretty simple-bumper pull. The machine he's pulling is a so small that a bumper pull should be plenty of trailer. How about storage? Does he have 30' of space to park a 5th wh? Or is it more feasible to store a 24' bumper pull?
The key with trailering off a 1/2 ton truck is PIN weight. 1/2 tons offer little PIN weight for heavy trailers.
IMO, it doesn't seem like he's going to use a trailer enough to justify a 5th wheel and render his truck bed almost useless.
The key with trailering off a 1/2 ton truck is PIN weight. 1/2 tons offer little PIN weight for heavy trailers.
IMO, it doesn't seem like he's going to use a trailer enough to justify a 5th wheel and render his truck bed almost useless.
Charlesaf3
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thanks guys thats really useful info.
Some of that stuff must have really improved your butt muscle tone TJ!
Some of that stuff must have really improved your butt muscle tone TJ!