Natural gas?

[Dftodd]

We're downsizing house and property after being here for over 20 years.

New home is still rural, but closer to larger town and a lot more homes on the road to what I've been used to.

Wife noticed a gas line on the new road, so I called the local natural gas company. Turns out if I convert the heating system to gas, they would hook up a gas line to the home at no charge. HVAC needs to be replaced, and I'd have no qualms going with a dual fuel system with gas furnace and heat pump.

Big plus to my wife is this home is a total renovation (built in 1962 and still looks it) so new kitchen and she's liking the idea of a natural gas stove for cooking.

I'm 60, and I don't think neither my wife and I have ever lived in a home using natural gas. Current home is propane, and only use it for one gas furnace in the attic and a tankless water heater and a vent free fireplace we rarely use. New home has electric water heater and a oil furnace that is coming out no matter what.

Although I hate LP pricing, do love our tankless water heater and honestly don't care for the fact that this new home is 100% electric except for that oil furnace. Since the house is going to get new electrical and plumbing, at this point, don't really see a issue with running a gas line in the "new" home. New home single story with unfinished basement which I'm liking because you can see everything in the basement.

So the dumb question is there any reason why not to use natural gas if it's available?

There was some serious growing pains and major billing mistakes when the local natural gas company was bought out by summit utilities.

People went from a $200 gas bill to owing thousands over night and were having their gas shut off in the middle of winter over it.

The state finally had to step in and freeze the gas companies assets and put a moratorium on their bills until they got their sh#t together.

My suggestion would be to look at what you have for appliances and pick and choose which would be the most beneficial to switch to natural gas.

We're planning on building a home soon. Only two of the appliances are gonna be gas, the rest will be electric.

Central heat and air are gonna be electric as well as the clothes dryer.

Here in Arkansas if the home is insulated right, and with the good windows (with thermal coatings) the heat pump is the most economical.

I'm planning on a pellet stove for supplemental heat and emergency heat via a generator if there's a power outage.

The only two appliances that will be gas are an on demand water heater, and the kitchen stove. For me it will be propane though.

After living two years in a camper, the gas stove and on demand water heater don't use squat for gas. 30lbs of propane last me three months in the summer when the furnace isn't running.

Now the furnace is a gas ****.

So if you have a decent heat pump, I would probably stick with that for basic heat and air.

 

[ultrarunner]

We also have geothermal heat and no gas. I was told that geothermal heating cost is comparable to natural gas. Natural gas is not available here. We also use an induction cooktop that heats as fast as gas. Also have a heat pump water heater. No gas here unless I drink too much milk or eat beans.

Is the heat pump water heater something you would do again?

With kWh costing 50-60 cents I’m reluctant to use more utility supplied electricity and fortunate my 6kW solar array is grandfathered for 20 years.

 

[ponytug]

Is the heat pump water heater something you would do again?

With kWh costing 50-60 cents I’m reluctant to use more utility supplied electricity and fortunate my 6kW solar array is grandfathered for 20 years.

If you opt for a heat pump water heater and can put it in the garage, I would recommend it. They aren't quiet, and if they are located in a conditioned space, they are energy inefficient.

I think a better solution is a split heat pump water heaters with the compressor outdoors. Sanco and Eco-Logical make ones.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

I don't understand the complaint about the delay for on-demand water heaters. There is always a delay, no matter the source (tank or tankless) as the water in the lines is cold, unless you do a recirc pump as a few folks mentioned. Of course it depends a lot on the distance, too. Is the delay slightly longer on tankless? Yeah a few seconds as it has to fire up first, but we are talking maybe an extra 5-10 seconds here and if you are using hot water for a shower or anything long just wait a few seconds for it. If that is too much for you, either do a recirc system, or put small electric point-of-use heaters at each faucet you want instant heat so it heats the water immediately until the hot water arrives from the main unit. For a long run, that may make sense and our kitchen island is like that. In hindsight I wish I put a POU heater there. Still probably could, if I really wanted to...

My experience - we used to have a 75 gallon tank, currently have a high-end tankless. Recirc on both.

Tank: Truly instant-on with that recirc. The recirc was on all the time that it was on (5AM-11PM typically); the loop was basically an extension of the tank.

Tankless: The tankless only fires up if there's sufficient flow (>0.4gpm). The recirc will flow above this amount (0.5gpm), but the recirc turns off if the return water temp is high enough. In practice what happens is this: The recirc makes the loop hot enough, then stops, and then it takes a while for the return loop temperature sensor in the tankless to cool off sufficiently for the recirc to come back on. Meanwhile, the loop has cooled off a lot more than that, big surprise. So you turn on the water in the kitchen and get cold (well, not hot, but not quite cold) water. Since the recirc isn't actually flowing there, the recirc still doesn't kick on until once again its reservoir cools, but the tankless will fire up - as long as you're using more than 0.4gpm. Not using more than 0.4gpm? Cold water, despite having a recirc.

So I find the efficiency gains of the tankless to be "interesting". I suspect that the tankless results in more water use (because you often need to dump the cold, plus you have to run at least 0.5gpm to maintain a hot water flow -- if you're washing dishes by hand and start using the sprayer which is definitely below 0.4gpm, the water will end up going cold because the tankless burner stops), though provably less energy use.
In some areas of the country, excess water use can be prohibitively expensive... though many of those areas also have very high energy costs. I'm not sure which is worse.

 

[ultrarunner]

I find the older pre nox gas water heaters true marvels… I would pickup 30 gallon for $88 at the big box store and typically get 15-20 years with no attention.

Now the natural gas heaters with nox are $650 to $850 and temperamental… doesn’t take much for one to shutdown.

I also have electric whole house electric at a cabin… works ok but I suspect because of 3 phase 380 volt.

 

[ning]

I find the older pre nox gas water heaters true marvels… I would pickup 30 gallon for $88 at the big box store and typically get 15-20 years with no attention.

Now the natural gas heaters with nox are $650 to $850 and temperamental… doesn’t take much for one to shutdown.

I also have electric whole house electric at a cabin… works ok but I suspect because of 3 phase 380 volt.

Yeah; our 75g State Select was put in in '96, and leaked in '22. I'd say I got my money's worth from it.
Only issue I ever had with it was a solenoid which disabled fuel (propane) flow unless the power vent was running would stick occasionally in the last ten years and I couldn't find a replacement... but I didn't try very hard because I found that a light tap on it would make it work for a few more weeks lol

 

[lman]

Is the heat pump water heater something you would do again?

With kWh costing 50-60 cents I’m reluctant to use more utility supplied electricity and fortunate my 6kW solar array is grandfathered for 20 years.

My HP water heater uses very little electricity and is in my basement but it does make a humming noise and would be annoying if it was nearer to our living space.