Need an opinion on a '72 Case 450 dozer

[Pushrod_Paul]

Hi y'all.
There is a 1972 Case 450 dozer for sale about 10 miles from my farm in WV. I would really like to purchase it for around the property instead of constantly sinking money into having someone come out and do the work for me. The owner recently died and the son is selling it for more than I think its worth ($9k). Its pretty beat up but the undercarrage looks decent to my untrained eyes and he says it runs strong. He did say that the idler bushings are worn but he has new ones to go with the dozer. It also comes with a winch that is not attached. I took a bunch of pictures of it so if someone with a trained eye wants to see a different angle I can email them the pic or pics. No hour gauge, so I have no idea how many hours are on it. It used to have a 6-way blade, but the hydraulic lines and piston are gone. Don't know how hard it would be to make it 6-way again. A small section of track is missing off of the starboard track.

So what is the value on a machine in this shape running?
Thanks.

 

[BuilderML]

I'll keep it simple. Its tough to price old machines. I like to say its only worth what someone is willing to pay. Come up with a price you are comfortable with and make an offer. I don't think the owner will see 9k for a 42 year old machine.

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

I'll keep it simple. Its tough to price old machines. I like to say its only worth what someone is willing to pay. Come up with a price you are comfortable with and make an offer. I don't think the owner will see 9k for a 42 year old machine.

The thing is I don't want to be paying for something that I am immediately going to have to sink a ton more money into either, unless I get it for a price that includes what I'll have to put into it. Such as, what will it cost to have the idler bushings replaced and is that something a home mechanic could do themselves?

 

[MtnViewRanch]

From what I can see, the tracks , drive sprockets and front rollers are next to new.:thumbsup: Odd that the idlers didn't get taken care of at the same time. But he might have run out of $$$ and just put it back together. Had intentions of taken care of them, just never got to it. You can usually get std after market cylinders to get the blade back in operation, not a lot of $$$, but it all starts to add up by the time that you are done. If you pay someone to do the work, plan on it costing at least double what the parts are going to be. To be honest, these machines are only a deal for someone that can and will do all the repairs and maintenance themselves. Nice machines to have on hand, that's for sure.

Here's some pics of my 310 Case.

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

Looks like a well kept up dozer MtnViewRanch. I don't mind doing the work on the dozer myself, I do all the repairs on my JD tractor. I just know there are some things that can't be done without expensive specitalty tools. I didn't know if the idlers were one of those.
Do any of you think that $7500 would be a fair offer on the 450?

Here is a closer view of the undercarrage of the 450.

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

And here is one of the blade area.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

It only needs the tilt cylinder, shouldn't be a problem. I would go lower than the $7500, maybe 6k. All he can do is say no. It's an old machine that is only good for a home owner. Any idea what other machines similar to this go for in your area. I personally have had pretty good luck with older machines, but maybe I'm just lucky that way????

 

[Bigfoot62]

The missing track pad is an easy fix.

So is the tilt cylinder, but that's not cheap.

I think that model will have the Case engine. The newer ones (early 80's and up) have a Cummins. IIRC

It will also have dry brakes, and they probably don't work. That's not a problem, if you learn how to run it. It has a "dual" transmission. (that's what the two middle sticks are between your legs)

And, like others have said, I would give him a low-ball offer. You don't want to get in too deep on an old machine like this.

BTW, the idlers are the big wheels up front. They don't have bushings, they have bearings. He may be referring to the top "rollers." That's the roller in the middle on the top. Bottom rollers are underneath, about 5 on each side.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Current scrap iron price is around $65.00/ton. I'd start with that for a lowball.

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

The missing track pad is an easy fix.

So is the tilt cylinder, but that's not cheap.

I think that model will have the Case engine. The newer ones (early 80's and up) have a Cummins. IIRC

It will also have dry brakes, and they probably don't work. That's not a problem, if you learn how to run it. It has a "dual" transmission. (that's what the two middle sticks are between your legs)

And, like others have said, I would give him a low-ball offer. You don't want to get in too deep on an old machine like this.

BTW, the idlers are the big wheels up front. They don't have bushings, they have bearings. He may be referring to the top "rollers." That's the roller in the middle on the top. Bottom rollers are underneath, about 5 on each side.

I think your correct about it being the rollers. How difficult are they to change out?

 

[BuilderML]

If it is the rollers that were not replaced i would not worry about them unless they are worm irregularly "not flat". Also look at the track "pins" where to sprocket grabs to turn the track and check to make sure those are flat or atleast don't have alot of wear in the middle. For the amount of hours and use a "home owner" will put on it is not something i think you would have to worry to much about unless the wear is really bad. Make sure they are not frozen.

 

[metalsmith]

Would help If he has maintenance records for the machine. What can be seen of the tracks they look to have some life in them but unless you have the tools for breaking tracks it can get expensive fast. Also can’t see the track adjuster to gauge track wear or the lower rollers. Looks like the right lift cylinder needs rebuilt, no biggie but a few dollars. Try to determine why the 6way was not replaced. Was it just the cylinder and lines or the control spool too? Or perhaps frame damage? Another thing if its set very long or been awhile since rebuilt, the injector pump is likely due to be overhauled/ replaced and that can be 600 and up. Check for any blow by on breathers or scum around fill ports to try to gauge the motor condition. If knew its actual history and maintenance it could be worth somewhere in his asking range but if any of the major components are getting near to needing rebuilding, motor, transmission, drives, you are looking at some major money which means its worth only what you are willing to gamble with. Perhaps 4 to 5000?

 

[The Fred]

I have a 58 310 that I rebuilt over the years to be fully functional and reliable. In 15 years I have spent over 15 grand refurbishing it. It always starts down to 0 and runs perfectly. I am in so deep money wise I must run it out because I could never get my investment back. With that said my advice would be to look for a 350 John Deere (one of the newer ones with wet clutches) and put your money into that. Around here the Case dealer network is not nearly as strong as the John Deere brand. I'd love to have JD 350 with a winch and 6 way blade.

The work I have accomplished with my old machine has been invaluable to property maintenance and firewood skidding, etc. I beat this thing BADLY digging stumps and pushing rocks, it rarely lets me down.

Also I believe the 188 Case Diesel engine is expensive to repair. Mine is gas and inexpensive, parts are easily obtained.

Good luck whatever you decide, Fred

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

Thanks for the help. I'll call the guy again tonight and try and get some more information out of him about the dozer. He might not know much since it belonged to his dad.

 

[PILOON]

I always suggest locating a local dozer mechanic and paying him an hour or 2 at his rates to do an independent assessment. Cheap insurance.
He will be able to ball park a value, spot needed repairs as well as project upcoming major expenses.
Makes negotiations much easier and often the seller will either adjust price or bring the machine up to market value on his dime.
If you get lucky you might even find someone that has worked on that exact machine.
Just go visit the closest dealer and ask around or even your bigger local contractor and ask to borrow his mechanic on your dime.

 

[Turbys_1700]

Just for a frame of reference...
My dad sold last year his D4D Cat and 941B Cat loader to our neighbor who is in the grading business...
He got 20K for both machines...
They were in very good condition...
Had been sitting several years but my father had the undercarriage on both machines serviced years ago...
IMHO the machine is worth it but I would offer 7K and delivery to see if he takes it...
Location and proximity to the machine is worth a lot...
All our neighbor had to do was drive both machines across the farm over to his...
You are fortunate that the machine is this close to you...

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

Just for a frame of reference...
My dad sold last year his D4D Cat and 941B Cat loader to our neighbor who is in the grading business...
He got 20K for both machines...
They were in very good condition...
Had been sitting several years but my father had the undercarriage on both machines serviced years ago...
IMHO the machine is worth it but I would offer 7K and delivery to see if he takes it...
Location and proximity to the machine is worth a lot...
All our neighbor had to do was drive both machines across the farm over to his...
You are fortunate that the machine is this close to you...

Unfortunately,, even at 8 miles distance I'm still going to have to hire someone to haul it for me. Hopefully it won't cost as much as a longer distance.
I like piloon's advice on hiring a mechanic to look at it. Unfortunately we are about an hour away from the nearest shop. I'll call anyway and see what they say.

 

[Bjarn]

I agree with Metalsmith.
Search youtube for "Komatsu PC 45 Shortening Tracks" and you will see what is involved in breaking a track. I would be wary of why the 6-way blade is not working properly. Believe me, that's the only reason you would want this dozer. It would appear that this machine was repaired by a "farmer mechanic" -good enough to get it going. With a machine this old it has a "commercial use value" of $0. Unless you are a collector and want to pour money into it, I would look for a newer machine that still has some "commercial use value". These machines usually start their life in some construction job role. When they reach the end of their useful life in those roles they are usually sold to property owners who want to clear their land and when completed try to recoup their investment by selling it to another property owner. But there is a point where junk is ...junk.
Take some time and look for a machine that has some useful life to it. If you look at the online auction prices like Richie Bros. or Iron planet, etc. they set the going prices. You will pay the same price. If you want to buy local, ask excavating or construction companies if they are replacing any equipment.

That's what I did and I picked up a 2000 Komatsu PC50 excavator for $8,000. It was more money and less trouble then they would have gotten at an auction after paying commissions.
I am a rancher who has been in your exact position, looking at the exact type of machines. I got tired of working on and pouring money into junk.
I also recommend you get a midi or mini excavator instead of a dozer. My PC50 at 13,000lb with a grader blade will do anything my old 350 dozer did and more. Cheaper and easier to use and much more versatile.
Bjarn

 

[Pushrod_Paul]

Unfortunately Bjarn, the steep mountainous area in which I live necessitates a dozer for trail work. I finally did got hold of the seller again and made him an offer of $6k. He seemed to take offense at the offer and wouldn't even counter offer. In fact he wouldn't even take my name and number in case he changed his mind. I guess good luck to him getting the 9K he wants.
Back to the grind of searching again. If any of you come across a good deal on a dozer for under 10K in or around WV, please IM me with the information.

I will check with some of the construction companies and lumber companies and see if they are selling any of their inventory.

 

[Bjarn]

Check the sold prices of dozers on the Richie Bros. Auction website for previous auctions. That will give you a ballpark price of value and what to offer.
Good Luck
Bjarn