Need help with Corduroy road

[josephny]

Hi,

I've been searching and am so happy to have found this thread describing the building of a corduroy road:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/153596-building-road-whoulda-thunk-itd.html

I have my own problem project and sure would appreciate some help.

I have about 100 acres in Sullivan County, NY, shaped as a rectange of about 4,500' by 1,200'

About 3,000 feet back, the ground is low and wet and over the decades (centuries?), an incredible wall of rhodedrum of grown -- about 12 feet high, and about 300' deep.

The ground has about 2-3 feet of peat-like stuff -- very soft, spongy ground, likely on top of clay (the dirt around the area is heavy with clay).

I've been trying to break through for years.

First with a dozer hired with a guy, who got a few feet in and refused to continue out of concern the dozer would sink.

Then I hired a guy with a mini-excavator and we walked into it a bit and said he could do it. I said 'are you sure you won't get stuck' He said 'anyone who gets their machine stuck shouldn't own a machine' Could hours later, he came walking out and had to get his buddy with another machine to pull his stuck machine out.

So I have a path that goes about 1/2 way through (150') that I can walk just fine, as long as I stay to the sides and dance around the softer middle (5' wide path created by the excavator), but I can't ride an ATV on it because it's too soft and wet. Then it stops -- where the excavator did.

This past summer, I took my chain saw and loppers and opened up a very small, difficult walking path through the remaining 150'. There's fallen trees and wet area and no way for an ATV to pass.

Past this area the land elevation rises sharply and reveals 30+ more acres of mine that I'd sure like access to.

So I've been reading and researching how to make it so I can pass with an ATV and the only thing I've come up with is a corduroy road of 6-8" diameter tree logs.

I've never done this, and getting manpower up there is difficult.

I was hoping the more experienced guys on this board could share some hints, tips, suggestions, warnings, etc. on how to get this done. I'd like to get this done in April, or May if it's still too cold.

All I've thought of so far is to find a few guys to work for a few days with me (I don't have the guys, but I'm looking), bring the chain saw, loppers and some hand saws back there and have at it. I could certainly have a truckload or 2 of gravel brought to the property, and shuttle it with my little trailer behind the ATV to the site (3,150' feet from where the dump truck would have to leave it.

Thanks very much,

Joe

Here's a picture -- Yellow is the outline of my property, others are paths.

 

[radioman]

It sounds like you have a plan. Have you asked your family if they could help out? Sometimes it can be a fun way for family to help each other out.
Is your land inaccessable at all times of the year or you havent checked yet? I have certain parts of my land I can't use in late fall and spring until I finally got a foot of wood chips down for a path and so far its still holding up for a couple years. I suspect that in another couple years, I will have same issue again as it decomposes. That is ok as I can get the county or power company to drop a couple loads again so I can spread with my tractor. Perhaps you could do the same if you have access to lots of brush?

If you were closer, I'd come and help for awhile as I am currently unemployed.

 

[Egon]

I've heard about rubber tires being bolted together for swamp maps.

Might not meet with rubber tire disposal hierarchy approval though??

 

[josephny]

It sounds like you have a plan. Have you asked your family if they could help out? Sometimes it can be a fun way for family to help each other out.
Is your land inaccessable at all times of the year or you havent checked yet? I have certain parts of my land I can't use in late fall and spring until I finally got a foot of wood chips down for a path and so far its still holding up for a couple years. I suspect that in another couple years, I will have same issue again as it decomposes. That is ok as I can get the county or power company to drop a couple loads again so I can spread with my tractor. Perhaps you could do the same if you have access to lots of brush?

If you were closer, I'd come and help for awhile as I am currently unemployed.

There's no family who could possibly help unfortunately.

I'm only there from May through September (and not even full time during that period). Spring is the wet time with all the snow melting.

I see Ontario is 4 hours -- too bad, as I'd love some skilled help with a tractor!

I don't know if I need anything on top of the logs, or whether rocks or wood chips or brush or something else is best.

 

[josephny]

I've heard about rubber tires being bolted together for swamp maps.

Might not meet with rubber tire disposal hierarchy approval though??

The flak I'd get from friends/family/neighbors would be too great.

And, I'd need a substantial amount of fill to make it a nice walking/riding path.

The rubber makes great sense though -- all natural :thumbsup:

 

[smstonypoint]

I could certainly have a truckload or 2 of gravel brought to the property, and shuttle it with my little trailer behind the ATV to the site (3,150' feet from where the dump truck would have to leave it.

Joe,

I'm no expert and can only speculate about the amount of gravel you would need. But I do think it would take a long time to haul it that distance in an ATV trailer. Any chance of getting closer to the wet area? (You mentioned that someone had accessed the area with a dozer.)

Did you run across this publication in your research?

Trail Construction and Maintenance Notebook, 0023-2839-MTDC, Trails in Wet Areas

Steve

 

[josephny]

Joe,

I'm no expert and can only speculate about the amount of gravel you would need. But I do think it would take a long time to haul it that distance in an ATV trailer. Any chance of getting closer to the wet area? (You mentioned that someone had accessed the area with a dozer.)

Did you run across this publication in your research?

Trail Construction and Maintenance Notebook, 0023-2839-MTDC, Trails in Wet Areas

Steve

Yea, I'm not looking forward to hauling 2 truck loads of gravel in a trailer that can handle about 10 cu-ft per load (given the weight).

I saw that publication, and a number of others. I did not find one that I felt had instructions any more explicit and details than:

Cut 6-8" diameter trees into 5' lengths
Lay them next to each other
tie them together or run a long log on each side and stake it down
Dig drainage areas on each side
top with soil/gravel/brush

There may not be much more detail, but for someone who's never done this, and doesn't have much experience in general with land moving, it'll definitely be a learning experience.

 

[smstonypoint]

Joe,

Just curious. What tree species will you be using for the logs? Some may rot faster than others.

Steve

 

[josephny]

Joe,

Just curious. What tree species will you be using for the logs? Some may rot faster than others.

Steve

I hadn't thought about it.

These woods are mainly pine, hemlock, beech and birch (though I can't be any more specific).

My understanding is that if the wood is underground, or better, under water, the lack of oxygen will prevent decomposure and mean that they'll last for decades.

Frankly, however, we'll take whatever treese are nearby and lay them as best as possible, and, without machinery or experience, I'll be very lucky to have a passable road.

 

[nybirdman]

Wouldn't winter time(everthing froze)be the time to do this??

 

[Craig Clayton]

I found your project of interest ( I can only provide armchair help ). On the gravel filling idea I do not believe it will work. The reason being we have a local rail line which is abandoned and in reading into its history the first track laying was done on the narrow gauge scale. The reason being it saved GRAVEL because the line passes through land similiar to what you are trying to get across. When our fore fathers put in lines I imagine they took gravel from pits and dumped it using the rail tracks right up to the point of the swamp. I think that land could eat up 100 times the amount that you could transport in.
There are crawler tractors with LGP ( low ground pressure ) tracks and they can go on soft land. the only problem is that there is a very low demand so there are not many of them around.
Another thought is to lay in corduroy wood except on the first layer to put down the rough layer lenght wise and then lay on the better stuff as the second layer side ways.
Also if you have scrub and if it was chipped on site and dumped into the soft spot.
Craig Clayton

 

[josephny]

Wouldn't winter time(everthing froze)be the time to do this??

That makes perfect sense (frozen solid ground, quiet time for work so there should be help available).

Do you think the ground is solid enough to hold a big machine?

I don't think anyone would want to work in the woods all day in this weather.

Know anyone who want to go over with a big machine (it's going to hit 24 degrees today for a high -- that's painfully cold)?

 

[josephny]

I found your project of interest ( I can only provide armchair help ). On the gravel filling idea I do not believe it will work. The reason being we have a local rail line which is abandoned and in reading into its history the first track laying was done on the narrow gauge scale. The reason being it saved GRAVEL because the line passes through land similiar to what you are trying to get across. When our fore fathers put in lines I imagine they took gravel from pits and dumped it using the rail tracks right up to the point of the swamp. I think that land could eat up 100 times the amount that you could transport in.
There are crawler tractors with LGP ( low ground pressure ) tracks and they can go on soft land. the only problem is that there is a very low demand so there are not many of them around.
Another thought is to lay in corduroy wood except on the first layer to put down the rough layer lenght wise and then lay on the better stuff as the second layer side ways.
Also if you have scrub and if it was chipped on site and dumped into the soft spot.
Craig Clayton

I did read in another thread about a guy who put down truck loads of gravel and it just disappeared into the wet ground.

The conclusion there was to make a corduroy road, which led me to my position.

I hadn't heard of putting down trees in the direction of the path as a first layer, and then another layer on top of that across the path. That seems like a better idea that simply 2 layers across the path (if 2 layers are needed).

I was wondering if I'd need a layer of gravel on top of the corduroy road, either to make it flatter (more easily traversed) or because the corduroy wood would sink. For example, if the wood sinks a few inches and then stay put, then gravel on top of that should fill that in and stay where I put it. Of course, I could be all wrong about this.

 

[nybirdman]

Winter time is prime time for logging,roads froze,no bugs,leaves off.Round up a crew,build a fire ,put on a good feed.Should be able to do that 300ft. in two days.I like the idea of two layers of logs,should work.Tracor with a grapple or thumb would make work a lot easier.

 

[josephny]

Winter time is prime time for logging,roads froze,no bugs,leaves off.Round up a crew,build a fire ,put on a good feed.Should be able to do that 300ft. in two days.I like the idea of two layers of logs,should work.Tracor with a grapple or thumb would make work a lot easier.

It does sound like a brilliant plan.

Would need to level and widen out the remaining 150' and lay down the road on the full 300'.

Being 100 miles away, I don't think I could pull this off. But oh boy do I want to.

 

[slowzuki]

Get geo fabric, roll out, put gravel on top. How thick the gravel needs to be is based on the load.

Having an ATV with 4wd, and oversized tires, I'm surprised it can't go through? Mine can drive over stuff I can't walk through, especially if there is a vegatation mat.

We have some corduroy roads here through swamps. They plain suck when they get old. Traffic will work gravel down through. Once the logs are bursting out, you get stuck in mud holes full of logs.

 

[slowzuki]

On my own property, I log the swamps in winter. The road progresses the length of winch cable each day. Dragging trees via the road packs the snow and lets the swamp freeze so you can wander onto the next patch.

Optionally a snowmobile can beat down a path and let it freeze up.

 

[dave1949]

I think you are on the right idea with the length-wise logs. That's how loggers here bridge over wet spots for their skidders if they are working a wet area outside of winter time - which is frowned upon.

They don't have to be big diameter, less than 6" will do, and if they go down in the wet mud, will take a long, long time to rot. If you have beech bark disease in your woods, I would use the young beech. It shouldn't take much to keep an ATV out of the ground. You might get by with only length wise saplings and not need the cross pieces. Definitely easier to use long saplings than short cross pieces.

I think the gravel will disappear without geotextile and a base of large (> 8") rocks below it. It would be a very slow process too and has the smell of a shovel about it :laughing:.

Dave.

 

[wetstuff]

Forget gravel... 'Ell, I have conventional local soil (loamy-sand) and it took about 5yrs of making a base before the holes were bridged.

Find yourself a copy of Eric Sloan's, Diary of an Early American Boy. If I remember they had a section within the year (1805) where they built such a road. (I had not heard that term in years!)

Local loggers make mats of 2x6, rough sawn hardwood to lay in the soft spots when they run their skidders into the woods, but they come up to move to the next jobsite. Good luck to you.

Jim


.... 'just checked: used copies of this book on Amazon are as low as 1cent. ...shipping may be $3-4. Sloan has done some wonderful books if you like old tools and learning how people -who perhaps had a bull named John Deere- got along as we are doing here.

 

[wedge40]

Watch a few episodes of "Swamp Loggers" and you'll get some ideas.
The oak matts will work.

Wedge