Need help with Corduroy road

[dave1949]

Makes perfect sense not to use the wood ones.

The plastic ones don't have the nail/spear problem, but they are permanent and not particularly nice to fill the woods with.

Does my math make sense for gravel:

400' x 5' x 0.5' = 1000 cu-ft = 37 cu-yds @ 1.25 tons/cu-yd = 46 tons of material.

Holy cow! I haven't priced material, but a quick glance and it's in the $20-$30/ton range -- that's $1000-$1,500 just for the stone.

Is my thinking right on this?

That's awful expensive stone. I am used to paying ~$16 per yard delivered. Sometimes less.

But, it's going to cost you unless you do with on-site or free material.
Dave.

 

[BobRip]

The idea of doing it while the ground is frozen means the paths are also covered in snow -- okay for dozer/excavator, but no commercial delivery dump truck will get in there.

You could bring the gravel in late in the summer. Then do the work during the winter. Would the gravel get stolen between times?

 

[inveresk]

Fabric is sold in builder's merchants here by the foot. Bought this way, you can get just as much as you need, no waste. Perhaps they do the same in your area. It's not hard to cut with a knife but it doesn't tear easily.

Put a sign up at the end of your drive (and maybe on Craigslist) saying clean fill wanted. Phone haulage contractors in your area to see where they're excavating nearby. Here we pay to dump fill so signs seeking it never remain unanswered for very long. If you get a response, you'll want to check the stuff out before it's delivered and make sure it's reasonably free draining.

Then instead of an excavator, get a trailer for your atv, a shovel and a rake and you have a project for the summer that isn't going to cost you much.

 

[josephny]

This article and the associated comments might be of interest:

Geogrids vs. Geotextiles - Setting the Facts Straight - Geotechnical Engineers

 

[josephny]

You could bring the gravel in late in the summer. Then do the work during the winter. Would the gravel get stolen between times?

Good idea, but this is a seasonal location (I'm only there late Spring to early Fall) and I'd really like this path operational this season.

 

[josephny]

Fabric is sold in builder's merchants here by the foot. Bought this way, you can get just as much as you need, no waste. Perhaps they do the same in your area. It's not hard to cut with a knife but it doesn't tear easily.

Put a sign up at the end of your drive (and maybe on Craigslist) saying clean fill wanted. Phone haulage contractors in your area to see where they're excavating nearby. Here we pay to dump fill so signs seeking it never remain unanswered for very long. If you get a response, you'll want to check the stuff out before it's delivered and make sure it's reasonably free draining.

Then instead of an excavator, get a trailer for your atv, a shovel and a rake and you have a project for the summer that isn't going to cost you much.

Managing this project from 100 miles away with extremely limited time means as much delivered (as opposed to picked up) and pre-arranged (telephone/email) as possible.

I know, the requirements, restrictions and parameters leave a smaller and smaller window for a solution.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Managing this project from 100 miles away with extremely limited time means as much delivered (as opposed to picked up) and pre-arranged (telephone/email) as possible.

I know, the requirements, restrictions and parameters leave a smaller and smaller window for a solution.

Yeah, you are in trouble there. How much would 400' of the plastic mud mats cost? Maybe you could even find used ones?
larry

 

[Redneck in training]

I saw something similar done in Siberia. Might not be the same though. They build roads on permafrost. They build road only in the winter when everything is frozen and they get access to fill taken usually from a river. In the summer there is 3ft of mud everywhere. The fill is sand, gravel or whatever material is available near by. They pile it up several feet above surrounding ground. When the bed is done they put reinforced concrete panels on the top. The road slowly sinks over few years time so when it is almost to the level of the surrounding ground they remove the panels and put them on side of the road bed and add another 3ft or so new material on top and reassemble the road.

 

[josephny]

Here's today's update:

1) The AM Leonard fabric is not appropriate for this kind of application, as per AM Leonard.

2) US Fabrics has the right geotextiles (from $585/roll of 432' x 12.5' delivered to $3/yd -- $1,800 for the same amount). But, on top of several feet of peat, there's a high likelihood it will not work. An engineer is required to figure it out

3) 3/4" gravel or 1.5" #3 rock is available in 20 ton truckloads for $15.25 and $14.74/ton, respectively.

Back to the drawing board.

Any thoughts?

 

[ultrarunner]

Here's today's update:

1) The AM Leonard fabric is not appropriate for this kind of application, as per AM Leonard.

2) US Fabrics has the right geotextiles (from $585/roll of 432' x 12.5' delivered to $3/yd -- $1,800 for the same amount). But, on top of several feet of peat, there's a high likelihood it will not work. An engineer is required to figure it out

3) 3/4" gravel or 1.5" #3 rock is available in 20 ton truckloads for $15.25 and $14.74/ton, respectively.

Back to the drawing board.

Any thoughts?

First thought is rock is cheap where you are... looking at $50 a ton here in truckload quantity.

 

[studor]

Any thoughts

?

Get out your chainsaw and try the corduroy route or find another way around
Is all 1200 feet across the property in the same shape?

 

[josephny]

?

Get out your chainsaw and try the corduroy route or find another way around
Is all 1200 feet across the property in the same shape?

I'd heading back to the corduroy idea.

It was suggested that I lay the logs down and then cover them with stone from nearby stone walls (of which I have plenty).

That way, even if the logs submerge, they'll provide a platform for the rock (so they don't disappear in the muck), and the rocks won't cost anything to buy or transport back there.

Lots of manual labor though. A machine with loader would help -- don't think I could get the mrs. to agree to a tractor at this point (though I'd love one). I guy offered to sell me a Kubota L3130 with loader on the front (only owner, well maintained) for $10k. It's very tempting. But, I'm not sure it'd be good for this kind of work anyway.

 

[MikeD74T]

I'd heading back to the corduroy idea.

It was suggested that I lay the logs down and then cover them with stone from nearby stone walls (of which I have plenty).

That way, even if the logs submerge, they'll provide a platform for the rock (so they don't disappear in the muck), and the rocks won't cost anything to buy or transport back there.

Lots of manual labor though. A machine with loader would help -- don't think I could get the mrs. to agree to a tractor at this point (though I'd love one). I guy offered to sell me a Kubota L3130 with loader on the front (only owner, well maintained) for $10k. It's very tempting. But, I'm not sure it'd be good for this kind of work anyway.

Get your materials in order at the site then rent a skidsteer with bucket & forks. You'd be hard pressed to shuttle materials as fast with a tractor as you can with a skidsteer. You might even find one with tracks. MikeD74T

 

[gwjd]

geo textile fabric ?

 

[beeforty]

Lot of great ideas but it looks like a lot of work. Since you have a forest of Rhodadendrons, is there any market to sell/pick your own maybe? How about take a sample of your peat and shop it around to sell/ find out if any value? A wild idea that I heard once was a guy had a bunch of old cyclone fencing that he rolled out before his Geo clothe for support so he could spread out the rock on it more easily, sort of reinforcing. Got from a construction site that had a lot of trashed fencing. keep us posted.

 

[beeforty]

I almost forgot, those stone walls. E-bay!! May some rich dude will buy them all and put in a road to haul them out. A WIN-WIN situation!

 

[josephny]

Okay, it's a couple months later and here's the update:

I went to the property in February and the ATV could not handle the 2+ feet of snow on the ground. So I hiked to the area where the path will go (hardest workout I've had in years because of the random foot sinking through the snow vs. resting on top of it).

I noticed a couple of spots where the snow didn't exist and noted the wet area underneath.

I then realized that the ground underneath had been insulated from freezing by the snow, despite the continuously sub-freezing weather.

So I had the problems of unfrozen ground, snow too deep to get back ATV and my growing concern that me cutting down 20 trees to make logs makes the chances of meeting getting squooshed way to high.

I then started asking about for slab wood. Weeks later, I have arranged with a local small mill owner to deliver slab wood, no less than 6" wide and 5' long.

Since then, the snow has melted (several very nice days and lots of rain).

Next week, I'll be heading up with a few guys to drag the wood back to the area, lay it down on the wet area and hopefully have a passable road.

I've continued to research and there appears to be many ways of laying the wood -- simply abutt them against each other across the direction of the path, lay down long pieces on the sides of the path in the direction of the path and then lay pieces across the path, tie them to each other, stake them down or to each other. I don't know which one to do.

I also wonder if these pieces will simply sink into the muck/peat and disappear. Should I just keep putting new pieces on top? I'm told that the muck can be many feet deep.

I'm sure as soon as I start I'll discovered difficulties/challenges I hadn't envisioned. The ground is hardly flat and smooth, so I suspect that will be a big factor.

Any last minute advice would sure be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Kyle241]

Just curious as I have a similar challenge that you do. I am building a trail through an area that has the designation of 'muck' for soil type. I cut a trail through in late August as that was the driest time however when I tried to get a dozer in, he made a mess for the first 100ft and I told him to back off. I am planning the corduroy road with stones from the walls on my property. Prior to doing so though I was wondering whether I should be removing the peat. Are you removing any of the peat or are you planning to lay your wood slabs right on top? I thought that was a pretty good idea the slabs and would be interested to know how you do as I have a local mill that produces these from pine that people around here use for firewood/kindling.

I will not be going back there to do work until Aug-Sept and I hope this Fall is a dry one that way I can get it all done.

 

[Bigturk]

I would try dropping some larger trees, maybe 10-12 inches in diameter, and place these as stringers under your slab wood. I would place two stringers lengthwise in the direction of the trail. About the width of your ATV tires apart. Cut the slab wood to the desired trail width and lay these perpendictual to the stringers. Nail them down to the stringers with the bark side up. Bark side up might last a little longer. If everything is tied together your trail should float on top of the peat. I have also encounter black peat holes on my ATV. The more you hit them the deeper they get. Early winter or early spring is a good time to drop the stringers and then come back when the weather is good to apply the slab wood.

Whatever the solution, it does sound labour intensive. Good luck.

 

[radioman]

I agree - lay them down like upside down railroad track. You need to build a floating platform. If it disappears in muck, chances are you can still drive on it and building another upside down track for height.