Needing Help Identifying Hydraulic Fitting Please

[npalen]

I'm wanting to install a pressure gauge in the lift cylinder line on the Kubota BF350 FEL late 80's vintage. The pic shows the fitting coming out of the front of the loader valve that feeds the piston side of the lift cylinders.

Trying to find a tee that could be attached directly to the the 3/8" Japanese JIS 30 degree male fitting with the hose then attaching to the other end of the tee.
Would prefer a 1/4" NPT Female on the branch of the tee to accept the pressure gauge but may have to adapt.

This tee would be similar to what I need except the valve fitting has, what I would call, an inverted flare.
9291 | JIS 30° Female Swivel Run Tee

Would any of guys (or gals) know of a source?

 

[Oldtractorfixer]

Search "30 deg jis fittings" and you get lots of suppliers for the tee. On the gauge side get your hydraulic shop or tractor dealer to make you a jumper hose from jis to npt.

 

[BukitCase]

Go here

Fitting and Thread Identification

and download the pdf for fitting ID - From your pic, it looks to me like you have GERMAN fittings; check out DIN 7631 Series in that pdf. That's the ONLY style they show that has a "backward" JIC fitting... Steve

Also called Metric 60 degree cone

Hydraulic Fitting Thread Chart | Hydraulics Direct

 

[npalen]

Japanese Coupling Types - Coupling Identification - JGB Enterprises, Inc.

Wondering if this is the series. My valve has the 3/8"-19 British thread. (-6 size)

 

[BukitCase]

Then this is probably the adapter that's screwed into your valve

9004 | BSPP x Metric

Because if you look at the drawing for metric 60 degree, you'll see it's the ONLY one of all that have been mentioned, that actually has a "male" cone seat in its FEMALE threaded ring, and the ONLY one that would actually MATE UP to the one in your picture (assuming same sizes, of course) -

It's hard to be 100% on this without actually being there, but I don't see anything else that comes close... Steve

 

[npalen]

But I'm going to need a tee with female threads and male taper on the first end to adapt to the fitting shown on the valve.
Then the second end of the tee needs to look identical to what's shown in the picture in post #1 to accept the hose, right?
I'm really perplexed with this inverted flare thing thinking it was only used on automotive like brake and gas line fittings.
Seems like some kind of hermaphrodite issue.

 

[BukitCase]

You're right - I was only showing you what ADAPTER you seem to ALREADY HAVE, as seen in your picture screwed into your valve - if that valve really IS BSPP, and not SAE (O-ring Boss, or ORB) then you would need a Tee with the two inline ports a male and female of what's shown (I'm still thinking I'm right about what that is) - then the SIDE port would need to be female NPT if you can find it, otherwise you would need a female NPT to whatever type fitting you CAN find for the side port of the (added) tee to plumb your gauge into.

If, however, that adapter that's shown still in the valve port is actually an SAE (O-ring Boss, or ORB), then you MIGHT be able to find a TEE to REPLACE that adapter - the NEW TEE would need to be ORB and male Metric 60 degree with a side port that's female NPT - If, and I do mean IF, you could find that combo it would keep your hoses almost in the same position as they are now -

BUT - first of all, I'd be surprised if ANYBODY makes such a Tee, plus if you're correct about the valve ports being BSPP then REPLACING the adapter with a TEE WOULD NOT WORK because your chances of getting the BSPP thread to tighten and seal WITH THE SIDE PORT POINTING THE DIRECTION YOU WANT are about 1 in 60...

As tricky as this is getting, I would probably NOT try to do this online unless that's your ONLY option - instead, I'd take that adapter out of your valve and go to your nearest COMPETENT hydraulic shop (if there IS one in your area) with it - tell 'em you want a tee with male/female like your hose, and a side port that's female NPT.

Hope this helps, I know how convoluted these things can get - in my experience the two main traits that help the most are Attention to detail, and STUBBORNNESS - keep coming back as you learn more about it and eventually you'll get your gauge... Steve

 

[npalen]

Steve--your friendly, understanding and helpful advice is very much appreciated.
Our area in Kansas is basically ag oriented with very little industry. Hydraulic shops of competence are fairly non existent. Wichita would probably be the closest at 2 1/2 hour drive.

I'm sure that the existing fitting threads on the valve is BSPP since the OD of .656" and thread pitch of 19 wouldn't match up with anything metric. (to my knowledge at least)

Here is a clip from the Parker catalog on JIS fittings. Notice in the two illustrations at the upper right where is shown the T4 and P4 interfaces. The inverted P4 would appear to be the one on my Kubota.
Sure looks like it anyway, don't you think?

I'm not above making a tee fitting if necessary but would probably need a female threaded swivel to get orientation as you mention. The 19 pitch thread presents a problem for single pointing so would probably have to buy a 3/8"-19 thread tap and die. I have made a few odd fittings by modifying existing ones and that may be a solution here.

 

[BukitCase]

I kinda thought you might be in a "hydraulics free zone", at least for this esoteric an application

You're right, 19 tpi does NOT translate to any of the metric pitch standards I'm aware of, it works out to a 1.3368mm pitch. The ones I usually see run 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, etc...

Went to look at your chart but you forgot the link or pic...

This kind of frustration makes me half glad I only have older stuff - most is either already JIC or it's NPT, which I hate - but it's easy to find NPT to JIC stuff, so I'll use the Hydraulic Loctite on an NPT/JIC adapter and never take it apart again :thumbsup: ...Steve

 

[npalen]

Sorry, here's the pic: I assume it would be the P4 version in the upper right. This is all new to me.

Is this what I'm looking for:
BSPP Swivel Run Tee (3856)


JIS Plug {3 Degree BSPP Thread} (3862)
Could drill and tap this plug for the 1/4" NPT gauge maybe.

 

[BukitCase]

OK, I must have missed something (or misinterpreted) - are you saying that the male threads we see in your picture are ALSO 19 TPI? If so, then the second from the top of parker's catalog page is your style, because it matches the male/female combinations I see in your pic.

I don't see how you could use the other two fittings you linked to UNLESS the female ends they do NOT show you the inside of have the male cone - from my limited experience with BSPP, they don't usually HAVE either a male or female cone inside, more like a slight chamfer if that.

This area of hydraulics makes the stuff I've run across seem like a walk in the park - they keep throwing "metric" and "BSPP" around, and I don't remember seeing a Thread Pitch on the Metric ones - but I would be REALLY surprised if the so-called Metric ones have a 1.3368mm pitch (AKA 19 tpi)

Do you have a link to the ENTIRE Parker catalog you posted the page from? If you do, please post the link. Seems like sticking with one manufacturer you might be able to find a compatible run tee, maybe even with a NPT side already there.... Steve

 

[npalen]

Yes, the male threads are 19 TPI. The JIS Japanese Industrial Standard uses BSPP British Standard Parallel Pipe threads.

Here's some Parker stuff:

Parker Engineering Your Success Motion Control Technology

http://ph.parker.com/us/en/japanese-industrial-standard-jis-adapters-jis-fittings-1

I'm from the NPT, JIC and SAE school myself so this Japanese and British stuff is new to me also. I'm amazed that the Japanese standard uses British threads. How do you suppose that all started?

 

[npalen]

https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/thread_guide.pdf

Thought I had this figured out but now I see, on page 12 of the attached) that the JIS type P4 mentioned above and BSPP look very similar and both with the 19 pitch thread in the 3/8" size fitting.
Both also use the inverted flare. (30 degree flare on the fitting and 30 degree cone inside the hose end)

 

[BukitCase]

Page # doesn't work for me - in that document, the page #'s shown at bottom of each page - pages 5,11,17 and 20 show the ONLY instances where the MALE threaded part has a FEMALE (concave) cone - notice in the dimensions part of each, that the 3/8" equivalent (or 10mm) is a bit different in the male thread OD - if you can get a digital caliper on your valve output using the FLAT part of the inside jaws, that might narrow things down a bit - Between those 4 pages, the similar size fittings have about 0.030" variance in male thread OD between metric and inch types.

Also, those pages show thread pitches from 17 to 19, so you may wanna confirm the 19 as carefully as possible since there isn't a lot of difference - I always try to measure peak-to-peak between the longest thread span I have access to, then divide by the # of threads to eliminate as much measurement error as possible.

I know you said this is an older machine, but if you have or can find ANY docs that came with it maybe THAT could give you the info you need - personally, by this time I would be looking at just replacing the whole loader valve/hoses with something that isn't so dang screwy, or selling it and starting over. And yeah, reality would probably set in when I actually reached for my wallet

Keep at it - if you need to borrow some of my (obvious) stubborn streak, feel free ...Steve

 

[npalen]

This is my reference to page 12:
The thread pitch checks between 18 and 20 using a pitch gauge so I'm sure it's a 19.
The illustration to the left shows a male thread with female flare.
The illustration to the right shows a female thread with male cone. Right? That is what my fitting has as shown in post #1.

 

[BukitCase]

OK, then we are DEFINITELY NOT on the same page and by that, I mean that the copy of that pdf I downloaded many moons ago has the BSPP info on page 20. Guess I'll need to re-grab the newer version of that and see what all has been changed.

And yes, the BSPP is one of the possibles I was referring to - in fact, within that doc from Discount Hydraulic it appears to be the ONLY one that's actually 19tpi AND configured like your tractor.

Looks to me like from this page

British Standard Pipe Fittings

you need a 9035-06-04 for your 1/4 NPT gauge to male 3/8 BSPP, and
a 9095-06-06-06 BSPP run tee (with a side female BSPP swivel) for your gauge adapter.

That config will ALSO let you make the NPT threads as snug as they need to be for sealing, and STILL orient the gauge any direction you want using the swivel fitting.

Good thing you don't need SEVERAL at those prices - makes me glad only a couple of my fittings need to be BSPP... Steve

 

[npalen]

With your help I believe we've finally got this. Let's have a beer!

 

[BukitCase]

Good plan - Before I "retired", I used to design, install and maintain complex instrumentation/control systems in rare metals industry involving a wide range of chemicals, sensors and processes measuring temperature, pressure, flow rate, pH, velocity, rpm, SpG, turbidity, conductivity, etc, and I don't remember ANY of that making me quite as thirsty as THIS process did :laughing:

I'll hafta save mine for later tho, not a good idea to mix alcohol with power tools, welding or anything ELSE that requires a steady hand and good judgement - and today I need to finish welding up some (typically over-designed) adjustable legs for a semi-portable work shelter I'm building -

Be sure and post a pic or two when/if we're proven right ...Steve

 

[aczlan]

Why not remove the adapter that appears to be screwed into the valve? That might adapt to an oring fitting. If it does, you could get an oring tee and a oring to NPT adapter for your gauge.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Also, you could put a tee on the high pressure inlet to the valve and get a pressure reading all the time.

Aaron Z