Neighbor痴 run off

[Paddy]

Got my neighbor's feathers fuffled. A little back ground. He lives at the top of the hill and my home down hill. After he built a room addition and new gutter arangment, I get a river flowing down my drive when it rains. This river ruts my drive and floods my parking area. His house is on the upper side of the private gravel road. His down spout aims towards the gravel road only he and I share. During a recent rain storm I put on my rain coat and head up hill. Get to the top and I see where most of all this water is coming from, his down spout. Previously, I had made "speed bumps" at angles to divert water off to the side. But with this river, it would breach it and go on down. A few weeks back, I took my tractor and "scratched" a small ditch along the upper side of the road. I phoned him and left a message that I was working on a drainage ditch to keep the run off off my drive and that we should talk about how to complete the project. He has a utility garage drive that enters the drive. Looks like a place for a colvert?? Well today I get a letter from his lawyer.

Starts off saying it is illegle for me to build a ditch. And that I'm sending water on to his property! It's his water being kept on his side of the road. The lawyer has no idea how crazy his clients concepts of water flow are but..
there is no suit just appears to be some threat. Then this letter goes on to state that the road needs to be moved to get back on the center of the easement. (now I'm thinking he getting to the real point.) Road has been there for many many years. I have 3 ac and build right in the center. He has 15 ac and builds 15' from the road! It is lake frontage so I can see he wanted the best view from his land.

So question, does a fella have a right to stop anothers run off from crossing a road and flooding mine? Ditches expected? and his responciplbility to put in a culvert?

Sorry so mesy a post just burning made

Patrick T

 

[mustangsallysdad]

Got my neighbor's feathers fuffled. A little back ground. He lives at the top of the hill and my home down hill. After he built a room addition and new gutter arangment, I get a river flowing down my drive when it rains. This river ruts my drive and floods my parking area. His house is on the upper side of the private gravel road. His down spout aims towards the gravel road only he and I share. During a recent rain storm I put on my rain coat and head up hill. Get to the top and I see where most of all this water is coming from, his down spout. Previously, I had made "speed bumps" at angles to divert water off to the side. But with this river, it would breach it and go on down. A few weeks back, I took my tractor and "scratched" a small ditch along the upper side of the road. I phoned him and left a message that I was working on a drainage ditch to keep the run off off my drive and that we should talk about how to complete the project. He has a utility garage drive that enters the drive. Looks like a place for a colvert?? Well today I get a letter from his lawyer.

Starts off saying it is illegle for me to build a ditch. And that I'm sending water on to his property! It's his water being kept on his side of the road. The lawyer has no idea how crazy his clients concepts of water flow are but..
there is no suit just appears to be some threat. Then this letter goes on to state that the road needs to be moved to get back on the center of the easement. (now I'm thinking he getting to the real point.) Road has been there for many many years. I have 3 ac and build right in the center. He has 15 ac and builds 15' from the road! It is lake frontage so I can see he wanted the best view from his land.

So question, does a fella have a right to stop anothers run off from crossing a road and flooding mine? Ditches expected? and his responciplbility to put in a culvert?

Sorry so mesy a post just burning made

Patrick T

First off...the driveway easement...how long has it been used? Check your local laws as it may not be a debateable point, anyway. Next, documentation...photos, video, plat showing easements. Contact your county or municipal hydrologist or code enforcement officer regarding the runoff problem. I feel for ya...not an easy thing to deal with.

 

[dave1949]

Google 'water runoff liability'. Seems if it is natural, nothing you can do except divert it. Your neighbor has altered the natural flow, so he has some liability maybe.

About the road/easement. How could your neighbor build 15' from the road? Usually there would be a setback far greater than that. It would be interesting to know if the road has 'drifted' away from the center of the easement over the years. Seems like that is a question that needs to be answered. Then go from there.
Dave.

 

[Paddy]

Road in that location 25 years+
Set back rules would likely apply to real lines not where road drifted.
I have no gripes with him or his house location. Just would be fair if there was a ditch keeping his river off my drive and or on his side of the road.

 

[RadarTech]

Ok... Let me make sure I understand this..

Your drive and his are shared to a point.
who maintains it? gravel, scraping etc?
who has been there longer?
have you maintained it the whole time you have been there without help from him?


The private gravel road part leads me to think that there must be some kind of agreement. I live on a private gravel road, and the bank had to have an agreement filed prior to letting us borrow $$$...
So start there..

does it rut the part he drives on?
Can you do anything on your property to change how the water flows?

do you have a big enough truck to drive over huge ruts?
MAKE HIM SUFFER!

do you have anyway of making a new drive to get away from his drive?

--- about 10 years ago a relative was in the same boat. he too had an interesting person for a neighbor. after he had to pay for 3 loads of gravel without ANY help for his part of the driveway because of runoff issues, he called the neighbor and said he was not going to do that again. His letters and copies of the bills were refused with return to sender. He was laughed at on the phone. A week later, he bit the bullet and had a guy build a new driveway, and planted about 2 dozen or so 3 foot "Christmas trees" beside the driveway on what he expected was to become an eyesore. Over the coming winter and spring the rain, snow, rain, and ice was so bad the driveway become horribly rutted. The neighbor had no tractor and was extremely cheap!!! All the stone washed out into the state road. the state proceded to scrape it up and haul it away. The neighbor's wife got stuck and had to call a wrecker.. The wrecker destroyed 4 of the trees sliding around as he got it to a place where he could pull the car out of the rut or ditch... A bill was sent to the wrecker company who sued the neighbor-- this is where the details I remember are vague. The neighbor blamed my relative for it all, and took him to small claims court. The relative showed copies of letters and bills for gravel, the trees, and his time maintaining the driveway on his tractor.... The judge told the neighbor to pay for all the gravel and the trees, and released the relative.

The last I heard before the relative moved, was that the neighbor was trying to claim he maintained the property so he could get a deed. the new owner got that squashed and his deed when he bought it has some kind of clause to allow for a gravel sharing expense-- the old and new drive was desired as the old drive allowed no step access to the house and the new drive required 10 or so steps. I think the neighbor got some sense in him by this point....


anyway--- more details and answers to the questions may help....

lot's of people here have seen this issue before!

J

 

[RadarTech]

Google 'water runoff liability'. Seems if it is natural, nothing you can do except divert it. Your neighbor has altered the natural flow, so he has some liability maybe.

About the road/easement. How could your neighbor build 15' from the road? Usually there would be a setback far greater than that. It would be interesting to know if the road has 'drifted' away from the center of the easement over the years. Seems like that is a question that needs to be answered. Then go from there.
Dave.

Dave,
In SC where a friend builds-- you can build down to 5 feet from the line...
where I live in NC, it is 25 feet..
in another part of the county it is 15..

when I built my house a neighbor complained and they came out to measure 4 or 5 times because of that.. I ruined his view of the mountains....

J

 

[Paddy]

We don't share a drive, we both live off a private road. We just happen to be the last two home before you get to the lake.

 

[RadarTech]

We don't share a drive, we both live off a private road. We just happen to be the last two home before you get to the lake.

Is there a owners association? or a a road "treaty"

J

 

[2manyrocks]

In TN, a landowner is responsible for damage caused to neighbors by altering the natural flow of water.

The ditch thing might have gotten your neighbor stirred up.

I'd shoot a video of the water flow and narrate it to explain what happened next rainfall. Never know when the video will come in handy later.

Probably better for you to consult a real estate lawyer in your state to check out your situation and tell you what you can do and can't. Martindale Hubbell.com will give you a listing of real estate lawyers in your area if you don't know any.

 

[dave1949]

Dave,
In SC where a friend builds-- you can build down to 5 feet from the line...
where I live in NC, it is 25 feet..
in another part of the county it is 15..

when I built my house a neighbor complained and they came out to measure 4 or 5 times because of that.. I ruined his view of the mountains....

J

J -
I think it is 75' here from the road. Side set backs are 25' or 50', can't remember which.

Paddy -
If the road hasn't changed in 25 years, that's a good thing. You still need to rebut the contention that it is not in the center of the easement. I am not even sure the road has to be in the center of an easement

As far as the neighbor altering the natural water flow, the road is a separate issue from that, suppose there were no road? Same rules apply.

Don't get over steamed. Easy to say, I know. You may have to get a lawyer involved since your neighbor started with the legal breath thing. You could unknowingly say or do something that will hurt your cause in the end without good legal advice upfront.
Dave.

 

[Scooby074]

I feel for your pain!. Im going thru exact same thing. Neighbour is sending all his water down my drive, washing out the gravel

Hes above me, sharing my drive, and by the time it runs downhill to my place its moving pretty rapidly, washing more and more gravel as it travels and gains speed.

havent figured out what im going to do yet. Im thinking about putting a swale in to deflect his water onto his land, or into the ditch along my section. Dont know. But just today, i found that he has no right of way to use my drive anyways. Easiest solution would be to remove the culvert to his place... that would catch the water and prevent it from going down my drive

Were not at that point yet, but hes been mowing 30-40 feet into my property the last few days. Dont know what hes trying to start, but hes going to get a suprise if he keeps it up. Hard to get to your house when a garage is built where your "driveway" was.

 

[Frosty2]

If he wants to play unfair paint the side of your house that faces him an ugly color. View of the lake will be the least of his problems.

 

[Paddy]

I understand on a county road around here, to get a driveway permit they have to inspect. Often, they see a need for a culvert and require it. In this case being a private road, we all have easements getting back to our homes. He has a family background around farming and has always been very practical. So this suprised me about drainage. The road location issue has always been there but mainly with another home.

The private road is over 1 mile and we live at the end, the lake. But along the road there are many cases of ditches and culverts. Go figure. Even on this neighbors 15 ac 600' of road frontage before getting to his home, there are ditches and culverts. I'm sure I ticked him off being diverting the water without a person to person discussion, but I see now his real bone is the road location. His suvey shows a completely diff picture than mine. My survey shows the road starting at my property line. His shows the property line as center of road.

I'd like to talk with him but would be very akward at this point.

 

[MarkV]

Paddy you need to find out who's survey is correct. That for sure is the first step. When you say "My survey shows the road starting at my property line." Do you mean that the road is totally on your property or you don't own any of the road and have an easement for access and regress? In most cases here, with a private common road, the property line is the the center of the road.

MarkV

 

[Zick]

From my understanding of the law around here is that you cannot divert the natural flow of water into someone else's property. Sounds to me that he's the one that is breaking the law. Time to lawyer up.

 

[stravis]

He's already started things with a lawyer. Unfortunately that means it's time for you to do the same. I wouldn't say a word to him face to face. If he comes to talk to you, tell him to do so through the lawyer. Any lawyer worth his salt will twist anything you do from here on without a lawyer.

It's unfortunate, but trust me, you will lose this "argument" without one.

 

[impdaddy]

good call stravis. Isn't country living grand?

Now we know why new subdivisions have so many rules and covenants. keeep at it paddy:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Paddy]

Yep, hate to to go the lawyer route but I see that's the only way. I'm writing a responce that I will forward to my lawyer. That way my lawyer does not have to take my words to print. I talked with brother-in-law, formerly in county eng dept. He had two statements, old roads don't get moved even if they are well off track and the water issue is his problem to solve, via a ditch or colvert.

So I guessing once he finds out old roads don't get moved and his water is his responcibility, it will end there. Sad part is, what was once a OK relationship will be bad here out.....

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Sad part is, what was once a OK relationship will be bad here out.....

But that was his doing, not yours.

I had a neighbor once who I helped out a lot, fixing his computer, helping work on his house, etc and then one day he decided to make a mountain out of a molehill because my cat walked thru his yard, and he hates cats. His loss, he wasn't helping me out constantly like I was helping him.

 

[inveresk]

I think I'd make one attempt to chat to the guy before positions get too entrenched. It should be possible to meet to discuss this problem and see if there's a win/win situation. Once two lawyer's are involved, every exchange of legal letters makes it harder to make an informal approach. One phone call to see if he's receptive to your approach just might save a lot of legal costs and retain reasonable neighbourly relations.