Neighbor use of my land Question

[PhilNH5]

Folks,
I have 2 camps on a small pond (Tickle Naked Pond - I just love that name) in Vermont. I bought 5 very small lots from the same seller. Two have camps and the other 3 are all wooded. All told it is just over one acre.
We use bottled drinking water and draw water from the pond for the shower, sinks and toilet. When we purchased it last summer the seller was allowing an abutter to run pipe over the property to get to the pond. The abutter also has a small pump on the property. The abutter asked me if we could continue this arrangement. I said sure. This guy is quite nice and we have spoke many times over the course of the summer.

This year I go up and there is a 6x6 ft pumphouse surrounding the pump - on my property. last year it just sat on blocks in the woods and you couldn't even see it. Now it is definitely noticable.
What I really don't like is that he never asked me. And now I have to worry about squatters rights. If I allow this to continue can he lay claim to that piece of property? I hate the thoughts of having to spend $ on a lawyer but I certainly don't want to let this slide if he can lay claim somewhere down the rode.

I have not seen him up there yet and at this point I am not sure what I would say.

any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Phil
I dodn't like that

 

[Chief]

I would end that arrangement immediately. That fact that he did not ask you permission prior to building the pump house should tell you that this situation has nowhere to go but down hill, especailly in the event of a drought. I share my well with a neighbor, it was part of the purchase agreeement for my farm but for only as long as they live there. Can't wait for them to move the next occupants will be hooking up to city water. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Amen Chief! I couldn't agree more. Now how to go about it without causing hard feelings may be another issue. Ticklish even. Smile.

Tell him he needs to move it becuase you're going to install something in that spot, whatever you can think of. Tell him not right away, give a couple of months maybe leeway? Need to remind him that that is your property.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

That's a tough call. Alienating a neighbor can have negative repercussions for years to come. I would guess that he added the pump house merely to protect the pump equipment and spent the money to do that only after he got the impression from you that his would be a permanent ongoing situation. It sounds like a classic misunderstanding.

He was thinking if you didn't want to continue the relationship, he'd remove the stuff before he spent any more money. Once he believed he had your permission to continue the relationship, then and only then did he take steps to protect his equipment.

If your concern is merely a 'squatter's rights' kind of thing, draw up or have drawn up a lease giving him rights to whatever and charge him some nominal fee like one dollar a year. That way there's no misunderstandings as to who the rightful owner is.

I don't know the layout so this might not work, but could you possibly ask him to move the pump to his property and still allow him to have the right to run the pipe through yours? Another possible solution is to see if he could lower the profile of the shelter so as to not have it quite so obtrusively in your view.

Personally, I'd try about anything before creating a situation where I alienated a neighbor if I planned on staying for any length of time.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Sounds like your are worried about "Adverse Possession." I believe that for him to have any rights under that, the possession must be "open and hostile." In other word he did it without hiding it AND he DID NOT have permission.

It sounds like he had permission, which you can withdraw, so you may be OK.

But, and I can't emphasize this enough, talk to a lawyer now. Buy an hours time. It will be cheap insurance. Make sure you talk to an attorney with real estate experience, and if possible, water rights experience.

We just went through something vagely like your situation. We called a real estate attorney who told us over the phone how to handle it. He told us to write a formal letter to the other party and give them a week to get out. We did that; they got out. The lawyer didn't even charge us for the call. He just said, "If they don't get out, call me back and we'll take them to court."

Again, it is important to call a lawyer, no matter how reluctant you are. I suspect others will give you the same advice.

SnowRidge

 

[rancar]

I'd agree with the others here. Terminate this arrangement, if possible. Talk to him and let him know you did not agree to this installation of a pump house. If it is so unsightly that it mars aesthetics of the property, I'd think you are within your rights to ask him to remove it. It could also be problematic in that your neighbor may in time be claiming water rights to a water source he doesn't own. If he declines to remove the pump house, consult with an attorney who has experience in easements and land use matters. If you want to save the legal fees and are willing to take matters into your own hands, tear it down yourself.

...Bob

 

[Anonymous Poster]

<font color="blue">( If you want to save the legal fees and are willing to take matters into your own hands, tear it down yourself. )</font>

That sounds like awful advice. If the man has permission, or reasonably believed he did, it could open the floodgate to all sorts of legal troubles. That is just the sort of chest thumping well meaning advice we got from friends here. We chose to carefully stick to the letter of the law. It served us well.

Talk to an attorney. Find out what your legal rights and obligations are.

SnowRidge

 

[hillslider]

WELL I HAVE READ ALL THE RESPONSE YOU HAVE REC. I CAN SAY I AM DISAPOINTED THAT NO ONE SAID "JUST TRY THE TRUTH". YOU DO NOT LIKE THE PUMP HOUSE. GO TO THE MAN AND JUST COME TO ANOTHER AGREEMENT. DONT BLOW UP AT HIM.....TALK IT OUT. YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED. MOST PEOPLE TODAY ARE NOT OUT TO SCREW YOU. IF HE GETS ALL BENT UP ABOUT IT THEN GO CHECK OUT WHAT THE LAW SAYS. I HAVE HAD SIMILAR THINGS HAPPEN AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO CURE THEM . BE NICE TO NEIGHBORS AND THEY WILL RETURN THE FAVOR. IF YOU JUMP THE GUN AND USE FORCE......WELCOME HATFIELD AND McCOY!!!!!!!

 

[Anonymous Poster]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Sounds like your are worried about "Adverse Possession." I believe that for him to have any rights under that, the possession must be "open and hostile." In other word he did it without hiding it AND he DID NOT have permission.)</font>

That sums it up in a nutshell. While the law varies from state to state, in general for an adverse possession ("squatters rights") claim to fly, the occupation must be adverse, open, and continuous for the period required by law. The key here is "adverse."

If you have an agreement, it's not adverse. The idea of leasing him the land is a good one, as it defines his rights and obligations.

Assuming you want to go this way, you'd want to grant a temporary easement, renewable from year to year, to construct and maintain the pumphouse and pipeline. If that access also gives him the right to cast flies onto your lake or pick strawberries, then spell that out, too. Ideally, the locatoion should be specified, but you'd need a plat of survey to do that, and that's probably overkill.

You might discuss this with an attorney. The first visit is usually free.

One good reason to codify this, is that these sorts of arrangements often survive the original parties. If he carks and his children take over the property, you want to have a basis for not having a dispute.

IMX, the real value of a contract is that people want to follow it.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Hillslider,

First, it's difficult to read a post done in ALL CAPS like yours. It also indicates YELLING or emphasis. I'm sure you didn't mean to yell at us and emphasizing everything equally emphasizes nothing. I might suggest you consider a more standard format for posts as they will be much easier to read. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Second, I believe if you re-read my post you'll find that I did emphasize a low key approach which included an idea on moving the pump and pump house of lowering the profile so that it would not be as obtrusive. The last thing I would ever want to do would be alienate a neighbor or suggest anything that would have anyone else do that, either.

I am very much in favor of seeking legal advice on this if only to make certain that rights of ownership are completely protected but I also emphasize that I think this should be handled in an amiable manner if at all possible.

 

[JohnMiller3]

<font color="blue">..."JUST TRY THE TRUTH". YOU DO NOT LIKE THE PUMP HOUSE... </font>

I agree...

Give the man the benefit of the doubt and talk man to man about it...

Besides, it is your property, you're doing him a favor, you're in the driver's seat... and you have nothing to lose by being straight forward & nice about it...

(and if he doesn't like it... what's he gonna do... remove his pumphouse and pump...?/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[rancar]

<font color="blue"> That sounds like awful advice. </font>

Well, SnowRidge...please note how I said this. I suggested first, talk to the neighbor. Then, if he refuses to remove the pump house, then consult with an attorney. I suggested the last and radical recourse of removing the pump house oneself as the last recourse, not the first. I'm all for resolving these types of land use dispute issues peacefully and diplomatically. No, I'm not pumping my chest here.....but, who's to say a property owner can't remove something placed on his property by someone else, especially when it was placed there without the permission of the property owner. I'm not an attorney but somehow it just doesn't seem right that I can't physically remove a pump house that belongs to another from my property when I didn't give permission initially for the placement of that pump house.

...Bob

 

[Anonymous Poster]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm not an attorney but somehow it just doesn't seem right that I can't physically remove a pump house that belongs to another from my property when I didn't give permission initially for the placement of that pump house. )</font>

A lot of the stuff in the law seems to defy common sense; at least it seems that way to me. When I started researching our little problem here, I found that any direct action by me (similar to what you are saying above) would have been illegal, and effectively would have put the other party in the driver's seat.

As I read your post, it advocated summary removal if PhilNH5 didn't want to pay legal fees. He already stated that he did not, so I read it as your advising him to go ahead and rip it out.

Please keep in mind that we do not know very many details on this situation. We don't know how long the fellow has had permission to get his water there. We don't know for certain if there ever was a recorded agreement between him and the seller. We don't know if there was a survey, although it should have caught the pump if it was done. Most of all, we don't know what the law is there, and how it applies to this situation.

I stand by what I said; it's lousy advice. Advising him to talk to an attorney or talk to the other guy is fine, but advising him to destroy property without knowing the legal consequences is not good advice in my opinion.

SnowRidge

 

[Golfgar4]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The abutter asked me if we could continue this arrangement. I said sure. )</font>

I've not had any experience with a situation like this, although it could happen after I move out into the country. But it seems to me that when he asked you if the arrangement could be continued, to which you agreed, that permission was granted on the basis of the arrangement at the time of the request . There wasn't any kind of structure in place at that time, was there?

After consulting with an attorney first, I think the prudent thing to do would be to approach the individual in a civil manner and explain that there was obviously a misunderstanding. Explain that your approval of the continued arrangement applied to the conditions that were present at the time the approval was given, and if he had mentioned his plans to erect a building, you would've said no.

If he gets angry or upset about it, that's when you calmly mention what the attorney told you you should do.

It seems to me that it's worth it to try to avoid confrontation, if at all possible. After all, you're going to have live near this person for awhile! But if being decent about doesn't work, protect your rights!

 

[hillslider]

YES MR GARY IN INDIANA I WAS WELL AWARE OF MY USE OF CAPS!!!!! I FEEL VERY STRONG ABOUT WHAT I SAID.......IT IS OF SOME PEOPLES OPPINIONS THAT GET THE LAW INVOLVED FIXES EVERYTHING. I BELIEVE IT IS THERE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING TO SOLVE A PROBLEM AND CAN NOT. IT IS THIS ATTITUDE THAT HAS TRANSFORMED THE GOV. INTO THE MESS IT IS TODAY.
Just my oppinion......I said that quietly! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[cowboydoc]

I can tell you that this can lead to permanent water rights. This happened to us on a ranch we own. We built a 200 acre reservoir at one of the upper ranches. We did this to be able to irrigate ground. To make a long story short we let one of the neighbors have some of the overflow water for some pastures and hay. This went on for about 15 years. At this time we get into a drought situation. The reservoir is very low and there isn't much overflow, actually none. Well Brimley takes us to court and sues us over water rights to the reservoir. Seems that there is a law in the water rights that allowed him to continue to take that water even though he had never paid for it or anything. His lawyer actually tryed to get the water over our rights to it!!! After a five year battle and I don't know how much money he was awarded permanent overflow water rights but not water rights when the water was low if there was no overflow. Now every year we have to file a report to the courts saying how much water there is. If he disputes it we have to pay to have an independent inspector come up and check the water. Pretty crazy huh. To top it all off this is permanent water rights. He can sell it with his property!!!!

 

[mdbarb]

See my thread"Help! I need legal advice re: easements" to see the horrors of wha can happen.
My advice - go see a lawyer today and learn exactly what your rights are and the proper way to implement them. Then go talk with this person on a friendly - we can work this out so everyone wins attitude - keeping in mind what you learned from the lawyer - get everything - I mean everything! down in writing -consider hat isn't written down goes against you.

3 words: communicatio, communication and communication.
Good luck!

 

[PhilNH5]

Folks,
Thanks for all the replies. As usual there is some good stuff. Some facts were overlooked. These are camps on a recreational pond. See attahed pic. I own 5 lots of record on this pond. I do not own the pond. The camps are only 3 season use. We go up a lot in the summer. The abutter does not have water frontage. He uses a shallow well pump loacted on my property with black plastic (butyl?) pipe which is strung across my property.
That allsaid I do appreciate the advice and comments. As I mentioned I don't know what I will say when I see him. My biggest fear is the lost of some of my property rights if I let things go. I really had not given it much thought until I saw the newly constructed pumphouse and I must admit the sight of it ticked me off.

I had thought of charging rent.This way everything would be spelled out. But w/o a lawyer I don't know what that will entail.
I liked the comment on the agreement standing on the time it was made ie . no pumphouse. But Richards comments have me worried. If I don't do anything will the right to run the butyl pipe become legally his? We would like to build a real house and retire there. I won't want pipes lying on the ground then.
And I won't dismantle the pumphouse. I had a freind in Delaware who dug up a paved driveway that a neighbor knowingly placed on his property. Yup he was held liable for the destruction of the neighbors private property.

So I guess I will call the VT attorney I used at closing last year and see what he says. Of course that will likely mean money from my pocket. But at least I can console my self that I don't have 1/1000th of the property troubles Richard has posted /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Again thanks for the replies.
Phil

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color="blue"> I will call the VT attorney I used at closing last year and see what he says. Of course that will likely mean money from my pocket </font>

Well, I think whatever he charges is a fair amount to charge for your first year's lease if you decide to go that route. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I thnk you can probably have lawyer draw up a simple agreement for a nominal fee. I suppose you could ask the neighbor to pay the fee or maybe you can tell the neighbor ahead of time that you would like to split the cost with him.

My main thought is to make sure you don't win the battle but lose the war...a ticked off neighbor who calls about, every noise violation, open fire, fence line, garbage pile, building without permit etc., etc.

I had a slight situation wiith a neighbor that was improved though not fully solved. I could have forced the issue but I got most of what I wanted and now he isn't likely to retaliate as I suggested above.

It's no fun having to live by every code, ordinance and law because your neighbor wants pay back. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Hope it works out smoothly.