New Backhoe Control Valve Question

   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #1  

Charles84

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2019
Messages
24
Tractor
JD 420
I have a 1968 John Deere 500. It has around 23 gpm flow from the hydraulic pump. The tractor has a 13ft backhoe and is 80 hp. I need to replace the 6 spool backhoe control valve because it can't be repaired correctly.
The only good quality aftermarket part that I can find only has 12 gpm. It's a prince valve (6 Spool Hydraulic Valve w/Joysticks Prince SV | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com)

My question is: Does anyone know if backhoe control valves utilize the full gpm flow from the hydraulic pump? Trying to figure out if I am going to be severely limiting the functionality.
Thanks.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #2  
I have a 1968 John Deere 500. It has around 23 gpm flow from the hydraulic pump. The tractor has a 13ft backhoe and is 80 hp. I need to replace the 6 spool backhoe control valve because it can't be repaired correctly.
The only good quality aftermarket part that I can find only has 12 gpm. It's a prince valve (6 Spool Hydraulic Valve w/Joysticks Prince SV | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com)

My question is: Does anyone know if backhoe control valves utilize the full gpm flow from the hydraulic pump? Trying to figure out if I am going to be severely limiting the functionality.
Thanks.
Can't answer your question, but summit hydraulics has a 21 gpm bh valve.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Thanks for the info. I've found quite a few of 'questionable' quality. Summit looks like they have the exact same one that many others have. I can buy it on eBay for $235, but I have no idea how long the thing will last, if it works at all. I'd rather have something made in America, but if not possible, i'll buy a few of the cheaper ones.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #4  
12 GPM valve would not work very well on a 23 GPM system. It will have excessive pressure drop creating excess heat.

What is unrepairable on the original valve? I suspect the original valve has features you won’t have on the $235 specials.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #5  
What is not repairable on your valve. You can buy used sections from salvage yards and most likely whole valve banks. The problem with an aftermarket looks like it will work valve is that you don’t have the individual reliefs for the circuits.
Might not be the best option and could get you killed.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question
  • Thread Starter
#6  
My system is closed center. I'm under the impression that it doesn't need reliefs.
I've been through the whole backhoe control valve twice. All new Deere OEM o rings. 2 of the spools just wont stop leaking. Also VERY hard to find perfect valves for a 1968 JD 500. I'd rather buy something new. I love the old tractor, but the hydraulics need an upgrade. Losing too much fluid and there is too much internal flow where the backhoe drops every 1-2 min to the ground.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #7  
I think you’re going to be disappointed with the performance of a not even close to right generic replacement at the best and more likely have a backhoe that’s not even operational. I realize they’re expensive but I’d look for a salvaged OEM valve or at least an after one that claims to fit. There’s a lot of precision in a backhoe valve and a few hundred bucks won’t buy an acceptable replacement.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #8  
Are they leaking between the sections externally? Some of the sections have circuit relief valves.
Which sections are leaking down so fast?

Also, you would be smarter to try and retrofit a newer valve bank from a newer Deere model.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question
  • Thread Starter
#9  
2 of the spools are leaking out of the top. Pulled them out and tried to reseal with new oem o-rings, but no luck. (After all internal o-rings have been replaced).
I'm assuming there is a lot of internal leaking due to how fast the backhoe drops to the ground so that's why i'm looking for something new. Some of these old deere parts, I have learned, should just be replaced.
I didn't know that there would be such a difference in functionality between a good quality modern valve body and an older one.
I do like the idea of looking for a newer deere model valve.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question
  • Thread Starter
#10  
I'd be willing to spend up to $2000 for a good new aftermarket 6 spool valve body with joysticks. I would rather not go used, because hydraulic components can wear so much. I've got so many leaks in my loader backhoe and need them to stop. (Addressing many right now)
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question
  • Thread Starter
#11  
Could someone explain to me why there could be so much different functionality in backhoe operation if you have a valve that has the same specs; closed center, same gpm potential, same spools, same joystick control.

All each lever is doing when closed center is opening and allowing hydraulic fluid through, so if it lets the same amount through, I'm not seeing how function of the backhoe would be different. I can understand the longevity aspect of a low $ part.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #12  
Not sure you can find new for $2000., but I wouldn’t want to put more than that into a 1968 backhoe. Used sections are $400 a piece.

An aftermarket valve may work just fine, but it won’t have individual circuit reliefs that protect the cylinders from sudden jolts.
Adapting may be interesting too.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #13  
i will try to explain why a generic valve versus correct pieces will function differently.

the original JD valve will have specific machining on the spools to achieve the desired effect on the function. For example would be boom down (hoist) will likely have the spool machined to provide back pressure when lowering to keep the boom from falling too quickly. You may also have internal porting to allow for series or parallel flow to allow certain functions to be run simultaneously

A generic valve is going to have none of those features. It will simply be machined to function.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #14  
Or go with a reliable modular valve manufacture and assemble the desired configuration.
Prince Manufacturing Corporation > Products > Hydraulic Valves > Stack
Heck if you want you can upgrade to the latest and greatest hydraulic pilot controlled or even electronic over hydraulic.
https://www.hydac.com/en/valve-technology-for-your-pilot-control
Industrial Joystick Manufacturers | Sure Grip Controls, Inc
or a new complete JD valve assembly,
1692108186087.png
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #15  
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #16  
i will try to explain why a generic valve versus correct pieces will function differently.

the original JD valve will have specific machining on the spools to achieve the desired effect on the function. For example would be boom down (hoist) will likely have the spool machined to provide back pressure when lowering to keep the boom from falling too quickly. You may also have internal porting to allow for series or parallel flow to allow certain functions to be run simultaneously

A generic valve is going to have none of those features. It will simply be machined to function.
Interesting concept about the machining of the spool - and of course it carries over to machining of the ports as well as maybe even some machined in controlled regeneration.
The thing is, I don't know if any of it actually is real. I just don't know about the valve industry. I do know that different control valve bodies have a different feel, that they do wear out, and that finding a valve with low flow controllability seems to be more rare than finding one with high flow speed. I assume the difference may be is in the small machining and engineering details -that would explain the price difference between cheap and expensive valves.... but again, I don't actually know that. It could also be greed.

One possibility would be to see is we can find a backhoe valve manufacturer willing to educate us on the subject.

Another idea would be to sit down and think as the OP did when he originaly questioned the need for a valve with a 23 gpm flow rating and wondered if a 12 gpm vavle work? Lets think on that for a minute.

Our JD310 BH flows 36 gpm and the Kubota M59 BH flows something like 10/15 gpm to the hoe. We use both at about the same boom speed with motor on high idle and on neither one do we use "full open" on the control valves...or at least not often. So we rarely ever get to 12 gpm (except lowering the outriggers). And even if we did, in today's typical OPEN CENTER hydraulic syste, an inexpensive adjustable diverter valve would answer. Simply feed the BH valve with 12 gmp and send the rest back home to the sump.

However. the OP says his old JD BH has a CLOSED CENTER hydraulic system. I love those old JDs - built to be rebuilt forever - and If I understand that type of system correctly it might not even need the diverter. In a closed center hydraulic system, the variable stroke pressure pump only creates as much flow/pressure as is needed & when the pressure tank is full the pump rests. That's the main advantage one gets for all the complexity of a closed system.
So in that system - if I've got this right - the backhoe control valve itself would not accept a higher flow than 12 gpm and the closed center pump would relax into low stroke mode. This is a fairly low pressure closed center hydraulic system by today's standards and that helps too.

If going that route, I might decide to put in an adjustable diverter valve anyway. Couldn't hurt; might help. If so, then in that application I think there would be no difference between an open and closed system as far as which diverter valve to use.

rScotty
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #17  
2 of the spools are leaking out of the top. Pulled them out and tried to reseal with new oem o-rings, but no luck.
External leakage around the spools points towards excessive tank pressure and would have no influence on cylinders drifting.
(After all internal o-rings have been replaced).
I'm assuming there is a lot of internal leaking due to how fast the backhoe drops to the ground so that's why i'm looking for something new.
Have you confirmed the cylinders piston seals are not leaking internally? Which way are the cylinders drifting? Extending or retracting?
Some of these old deere parts, I have learned, should just be replaced.
I didn't know that there would be such a difference in functionality between a good quality modern valve body and an older one.
I do like the idea of looking for a newer deere model valve.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Is there a pilot or sense line that goes from this valve stack to the pump control? If yes you will need a valve with that feature also.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #18  
I worked for an excavator manufacturer and worked very closely with hydraulics. And engineering and the supplier of the hydraulic system.

Valves are made to get specific operation of certain functions. This requires very specific machining in the valve spool, drillings, notches, etc. At one time, spools/bores were matched for size to control leakage, that has largely gone out of favor due to cost.

Valve work ports can be configured for different options of relief valves, anti-cav valves, fittings, etc.

Inlets/outlets can be configured to match installation plumbing. Relief valves, unloader valves, pressure reducing valves, etc can be located in those sections.

And a lot of other functional items can be added to a control valve. Finding an aftermarket valve that is configured to make a machine work correctly is largely going to be crap shoot unless you have a good understanding of how your original valve is configured and specify what you need. And even then, you will likely need external valving to duplicate your original valves function. And likely at the end of the day, it will function, but not great.

If original parts are available, this is the best, but likely not cheapest solution. Or it may be time to retire it. There is a reason a lot of old equipment has become rebar.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question #19  
Going with new valves is the best choice given the age of the machine. I think JD was using Gresen so a direct replacement is no longer available. Rich B1 is correct about the different spools. The JD manual shows that each spool had a different housing.

You can restore operability with aftermarket valves. You will have to fabricate brackets, and potentially make new lines. Also the backhoe will not operate as smoothly as it does with the OEM valve because of what Rich B1 noted above. However it will still work safely, just rough.

You will need a closed center valve capable of the full 23 gpm. Most likely your going to have to get a 25GPM valve.
 
   / New Backhoe Control Valve Question
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. There's a lot for me to think about
 

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