New clutch installed and wont dis-engage the engine

[banjodunn]

G'day when you say the well that the disc sits into do you mean that there is a raised edge on the flywheel where the PP bolts up to? If this is the case then if the flywheel has been machined at some stage this depth ( we call it pot depth over here ) may be wrong!! If this depth is wrong then the PP may not release ( as in your case ) or may not clamp tight enough and cause it to slip. I do not know what the depth of yours should be but your clutch supplier should be able find out.
Also I have had probs ( rare but it does happen ) of aftermarket clutches or updated units requiring shims to be fitted/removed from between the PP and the flywheel where the PP bolts up.


Jon

 

[SPYDERLK]

So right now from my measurements there is less that 2mm of room for the pressureplate to be moved by the fingers and lift off of the clutch disk and release it. Is that enough room? My real issue is adjusting so I can fully press the fingers down to lift the PP up that 2mm without pushing too hard and bending the fingers...

To get the maximum safe lift, carefully adjust your pedal freeplay to very near zero. If the clutch works, use it for a few minutes and then adjust for a little freeplay. You dont want to leave it adjusted with no freeplay because it is bad for the throw out bearing and fingers - and also it could slip under power and burn it. Ideally you want to get it adjusted with about 1" freeplay. If you can adjust it there w/o the clutch dragging you should be home free.
larry

 

[mpilihp]

G'day when you say the well that the disc sits into do you mean that there is a raised edge on the flywheel where the PP bolts up to? If this is the case then if the flywheel has been machined at some stage this depth ( we call it pot depth over here ) may be wrong!! If this depth is wrong then the PP may not release ( as in your case ) or may not clamp tight enough and cause it to slip. I do not know what the depth of yours should be but your clutch supplier should be able find out.
Also I have had probs ( rare but it does happen ) of aftermarket clutches or updated units requiring shims to be fitted/removed from between the PP and the flywheel where the PP bolts up.


Jon

Hi Jon yes that is what Im talking about. It appears when the pp is bolted up there is less than 2 mm free space between the back of the pressure disk and the pp mounting plate for the pp to move and release the clutch. THe tractor is a Pasquali from Italy and no dealer around so really no way to easily find that info out. A few others have posted to put washers behind the PP to give it more room to release but then when I mentioned doing that others said not to that it is bad and that the pp backing that gets bolted to the flywheel can warp/bend. Read my next entry for the results .

 

[mpilihp]

So tonight I finished hooking everything up to the motor cleared the area and fired it up. I then attempted to shift it in gear and it grinding a little but went in and started to move, I could with my foot on the clutch and brake hold the tractor still. I drove it out of the garage and sat there like that for a bit and tried then to shift it out of gear and then back in gear and it was grinding. So since it was raining I decided to put it back in the garage. I went to shut the engine down so I could shift it in reverse without grinding it and the motor would not shut off. Holding the lever and the motor would not stop, very weird. So I forced it into reverse and backed it into the garage and shifted into neutral. I proceeded to pull the fuel line off expecting this would kill it.

Doing this I was hearing a sound I normally did not and when the engine did not stop it dawned on me what it was. THe starter motor was still engaged, I quickly disconnected the battery and it all stopped. Very weird in that the motor was popping like it was firing. Anyhow now it appears I've smoked the starter, when it rains it pours.

I was going to re-check the clutch cable adjustment and then wait and try driving into a tree and let it run with my foot on the clutch and see if it would burn in and free it up.

SO while I waited for the starter to cool down I went to check the clutch and free play and when I stepped on the clutch the cable broke, ugh.

So Im at the point of after I put a new cable on it, if doing the drive into a tree and let the clutch slip trick if that doesn't work trying to put spacers behind the pressure plate to give it more room to allow the pressure plate to release the clutch disk.

~ Phil

 

[oldmech]

Hi! I think Banjodunn is 100% right. Do not burnt your clutch on tree. This can overheat and destroy (dummage) Flywheel pressure plate etc. I think You are missing travel or stroke at the fingers. You must adjust pressure plate with shims Do not use washers. Shims are easy to make with metal sheet as 16 GA. 1 in. x 4 in . You drill holes. So 16 GA about 1.5 mm may be this shims can add 8-10 mm travel at fingers-bearing. But I ask you when you fit the pressure plate with disk inside on flywheel. You screw bolts by hand How much space between pressure plate and the flywheel. You must have a good space because this is the pressure on your disk. After disk and pressure plate are bolted look the fingers versus the bell housing and bearing versus tranny housing. Be carefull! Good luck! Oldmech

 

[mpilihp]

Hi Oldmech thanks for your input. So when you talk shims its plural so are you saying for each bolt a seperate shim made from sheet metal? how large IE how much surface area should it cover between the flywheel and pp? Or are you saying I need to make one circular shim that matches the mating surface area of the pp?

Secondly I agree I am not getting enough movement from the fingers to release it. This last time I tried I removed blocking rings that were on the guide pins the thowout bearing rides on to allow the throw out bearing (TOB) to sit further back in the bell housing and then I adjusted the fingers to stand up taller and be closer to the throw out bearing. My though was when the TOB pushed against the fingers they got to the point they were flat and would not exert any more pressure on the plate to lift it. Doing this should give more action from them. I also to make sure the TOB was actually moving far enough I made adjustments on the clutch pedal (Bend the pedal to let it move 1/4" further to the floor board). Secondly on the arm on the tranny that the clutch cable connects to, I moved the connection point down about 1 inch so the arm has a longer throw. All together now the TOB moves 9/16" of an inch towards the fingers, I think before when I measured the movement it was only 3/8 of an inch.

So now I feel there isnt enough room under the pp to release the clutch, I think I want to try shimming it just need to know if I can make seperate shimms around each bolt or one big circular shim.

Thanks for your help.

~ Phil

 

[mmurphy]

I think you need to contact vendor about problem. You may have something that got mixed up for a different application.

Shims would be one at each bolt.

 

[Joe H]

Same answer I gave earlier, the disc is too thick. All this shimming and changing the release lever angle and whatnot is not the right answerI it may work to get it going but it won't last.
Joe H

 

[mpilihp]

Well there is no dealer in the US for this make tractor, Pasquali, Ive double checked with the supplier of the parts who is the Canadian supplier for Pasquali and he confirmed it is the right part. I have to get it working myself with what I have for parts.

Also its been in this state (unuseable) since June and I have to have it for plowing which is comming up soon. Not only that but I would like to be able to use the garage to do other stuff. Im getting to the point of considering it a total loss so even if I can get it to work for a year on a hacked up setup id be buying myself some time before I have to shell out alot of money to replace it....

Anyone want an Italian lawn ornament??

 

[mpilihp]

I think you need to contact vendor about problem. You may have something that got mixed up for a different application.

Shims would be one at each bolt.

So if the shims are one at each bolt how large of surface should they cover? Cant I not use washers if they are just around the bolts?

 

[oldmech]

Hi! The best Oem Disk from Pasquali Italy . But you have one now. I just seen your pressure plate. This clutch look very small. I think the best is circular shim. I write 16 Ga .059 Metal sheet But may be 20Ga .035 or 22Ga .029 is enough. Try 22Ga first more easy to cut with Wiss tool. Good Luck Oldmech

 

[SPYDERLK]

What did the pilot bearing look like?
larry

 

[mmurphy]

So if the shims are one at each bolt how large of surface should they cover? Cant I not use washers if they are just around the bolts?

I would cover just as big an area with out it protruding in to disk area. Shim stock is more accurate in dimension then a washer. Still take time to clean burrs off any spot you cut.

Are you sure there is not another piece that had disintegrated, got lost, or fork damage that may have happened? Do you have a picture of all components that need to be there?

 

[Redneck in training]

I didn稚 read all the posts. I used to have Fiat car with similar clutch design.
Can you take the old pressure plate to a shop and have it turned. It will repair the surface and make it thinner to fit the thicker disc.

Also check the mechanism (fork) that pushes on the bearing. Is it tight on the shaft? Also the lever the cable connects to.

 

[mpilihp]

Hi All thanks for your help and suggestions I really do appreciate it. THe first thing I am going to do is replace the clutch cable that broke, it broke from the cable tightening device that holds it tight under the clutch pedal. Before I tried running the engine I had tested it by cranking the engine over in gear with the pedal pushed down and the tractor did not move so hoping it will be ok with a new cable. I suspect the cable streached where it was breaking.

To respond to all of your comments:

Oldmech - if I have to Ill give the shim a try, one piece and use 22gauge, I actually think I have some already.

SpyderLnk - Interesting that you would ask about the pilot bearing, there wasn't one! I got the specs for it and put a new one in. The previous owner stated they had re-ringed the engine so Im guessing for what ever reason they took the pilot bearing out.

mmurphy - so are you saying there are manufactured shims I could buy/use for this? Also everything else looks ok/good. Forks, lever, pedal all seam to be tight and not bent. If you read some previous posts in this thread I posted pictures.

Redneck - (Neat name) The old pressure plate was returned for core charge, its fingers were bent/damaged. The old clutch disk appears ok to me though I am no expert at this. Its slightly thinner than the new one but is whole. I have contemplated putting the old disk back in as it would give more room for the pp to release it. Fork and lever look ok.

Thanks, hopefully Ill get the clutch cable on today and give it a try and maybe it will work, if not off with the engine again!

~ Phil

 

[Mace Canute]

SpyderLnk - Interesting that you would ask about the pilot bearing, there wasn't one! I got the specs for it and put a new one in. The previous owner stated they had re-ringed the engine so Im guessing for what ever reason they took the pilot bearing out.

?????????????

How the h*ll did the clutch work without a pilot bearing???

 

[skipmarcy]

?????????????

How the h*ll did the clutch work without a pilot bearing???

Really .... input shaft needs a pilot bearing. Also note - in my Mahindra the pilot bearing mounts in the flywheel, not the crankshaft - don't ask me how many times I split my tractor before I figured this out !!!! The bearing fit the crank just fine , just like you would think it would in any car or truck but it was meant to go in the flywheel. My clutch would not disengage enough to shift until that input shaft was supported like it was supposed to be which it was only long enough to reach the bearing in the flywheel !!! The reason I didn't know all this was that my original pilot bearing had disintegrated from engine to trans mounting bolts being broken so when I disassembled I had nothing to go by on the pilot bearing and I assumed it was like all others I had ever done with the bearing in the end of the crankshaft. You live & learn everyday.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Really .... input shaft needs a pilot bearing. Also note - in my Mahindra the pilot bearing mounts in the flywheel, not the crankshaft - don't ask me how many times I split my tractor before I figured this out !!!! The bearing fit the crank just fine , just like you would think it would in any car or truck but it was meant to go in the flywheel. "My clutch would not disengage enough to shift until that input shaft was supported like it was supposed to be which it was only long enough to reach the bearing in the flywheel !!! The reason I didn't know all this was that my original pilot bearing had disintegrated from engine to trans mounting bolts being broken so when I disassembled I had nothing to go by on the pilot bearing and I assumed it was like all others I had ever done with the bearing in the end of the crankshaft. You live & learn everyday.

Ok ... perhaps some linearity appears. -- Orig clutch dragged because the pilot wasnt there or fell apart. OP adjusted for more and more clutch lift and finally damaged the lift fingers. New assembly still drags but probably due to "it looks like my new clutch disk is springy and compresses some, IE I can squeeze it in a vise whereas the old one will not compress". If usable as a clutch I think a few full throttle take offs in a medium speed travel gear would bed the clutch in by a little wear and added heat to settle the spinginess a bit.
larry

 

[mmurphy]

Are you sure there is not another piece that had disintegrated, got lost, or fork damage that may have happened? Do you have a picture of all components that need to be there?

I think the other guys may have you covered. That shaft has to be torqued too the side when pushing on the clutch causing part of the clutch always engaged. Remember you only have a small clearence when releasing in the first place.

 

[cycle_gator]

This is a really interesting post. Clutches are great as long as they work and are easy to replace as long as all goes as it should. BUT if a component goes south, they can be a real PITA. In my son's Miata he had intermittant clutch issues, not disengaging, same as OP. Replaced slave, replaced master (hydraulic clutch), checked PP, CD and TOB, but every couple of months the problem seemed to return. Finally traced it all to a softened section of flex hose between the master cylinder and the clutch slave. It woudl expand and not allow the hydraulic pressure to fully disengage the clutch.

Long story just to say, part of the issue might have been a clutch cable reaching the end of its life and stretching each time the clutch was engaged. This is extraordinarliy common in Volkswagen beetles (cable operated clutch) and motorcycles. I know all to well from experience.

Before you put it all back togehter you might want to check out the input shaft bearing in the transmission. Operating without a pilot bearing for extended periods can damage that front bearing in the transmission.

Good luck and keep posting, you have lots of support and I applaud you for not getting overly frustrated with a seemingly simple fix. If is was me, by now, it might have felt the heat of the cutting torch.