New electrical panel question

[buckeyefarmer]

I prefer QO over homeline, just a personnal preference. Watch out for counterfeit QO breakers.

 

[LD1]

I'll admit that I am not well versed on breakers, but have no issues using homeline series. Never had any issues. And the style of them, in a pinch I have used some seimens and murray breakers as the style is the same. Dont know of any that are similar to the QO.

Hard for me to justify the extra expense when the cheaper ones work. Maybe the QO have a longer lifespan of trip cycles and remain accurate? But I rarely trip breakers, as I size everything properly and have plenty of circuits.

 

[CobyRupert]

Power is Watts, Current is Amps.

but you are right, your load changes all the time. Your bill is your best guide for what you are using.

I wouldn't put in less than a 200A panel for a house, with lots of breaker space. I like to put in a lot more circuits than the minimum.

Yes we know, I won't bore people with how power is directly related to amps (and power factor), that wasn't my point. My point was that you can't correlate power needs to your energy usage bill.
Imagine 2 monthly power bills (240V service):
One is for 4147 kw-hrs, the other is for 864 kw-hrs.
Which one can get by with 30 amp service, which one needs a 200A service?
There"s no way you can tell.
(e.g. A 30 amp service pulling 24amps (24hr for 30 days) is the 4147 kw-hr bill, a 150amp load that only runs for 1 day a month is the 864kw-hr bill and needs a 200 amp service.)

Unless your bill has what is known as a "load factor" value.
Sizing a service is where we try to apply science, engineering, formulations, calculations, etc..; but in the end it's more similar to a soothsayer trying to look into a crystal ball and predict the future.
Sort of like buying insurance.

 

[LD1]

Yes we know, I won't bore people with how power is directly related to amps (and power factor), that wasn't my point. My point was that you can't correlate power needs to your energy usage bill.
Imagine 2 monthly power bills (240V service):
One is for 4147 kw-hrs, the other is for 864 kw-hrs.
Which one can get by with 30 amp service, which one needs a 200A service?
There"s no way you can tell.
(e.g. A 30 amp service pulling 24amps (24hr for 30 days) is the 4147 kw-hr bill, a 150amp load that only runs for 1 day a month is the 864kw-hr bill and needs a 200 amp service.)

Sizing a service is where we try to apply science, engineering, formulations, calculations, etc..; but in the end it's more similar to a soothsayer trying to look into a crystal ball and predict the future.
Sort of like buying insurance.

A good example of that is my house and my shop on two separate bills. (both have 200a service)

But I could likely get by with 60 or 100a service in the house. Its all electric, but wood heat and all LED's. Largest loads would be when the range is on and the waterheater kicks on. Water heater probably is ~20a, stove maybe consumes 30a with a burner or two on top.

No way could I get by with a 60a at the shop. All the lights on is 23a. Wood stove blower kicks in at 7a. Air compresser is ~15a. Now someone running the 15a chop saw while I am welding something......or worse yet, loose the 7a wood stove blower and have both 18k btu window air conditoners running.....

And my shop usage is ~350kwh/month. The house is ~1000-1200kwh

 

[ultrarunner]

When I first started working at the Hospital... the environmental controls were all set to start in each building at exactly the same time... this caused a momentary spike in usage as the compressors and blowers were all starting together.

By staggering the start times by 15 minutes I was able to reduce cost based on maximum peek for the billing cycle.

 

[CobyRupert]

Easy enough to figure it out from your power bills but PGE doesn't make that easy with all their baseline tiered mumbo jumbo to get more money out of your pocket. IMHO power should be billed at a flat rate for everyone based on costs, enough of this socialism and gubberment mandated kinda stuff.

When I first started working at the Hospital... the environmental controls were all set to start in each building at exactly the same time... this caused a momentary spike in usage as the compressors and blowers were all starting together.

By staggering the start times by 15 minutes I was able to reduce cost based on maximum peek for the billing cycle.

Ultrarunner, you point out exactly why utilities need multi-tiered mumbo jumbo socialist gubbermint mandated billing. It makes sense to have incentives in the market so utilities don't have to overbuild transmission and distribution systems to handle 5 minutes of peak load a year when the average load is only 40% of that. That is the point of demand metering so there's an monetary incentive to use power during off peak hours.
When you hear the phrase "smart meters" this is what they have in store for residential users in the future. It's coming....

 

[ultrarunner]

We've been 99% smart residential for some time...

Have a neighbor that 100% would not let utility change out his meter... they still have not done it... old retired career Utility Line Man...

He is the only one I know.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I don't think you pay any different here for 100A or 200A service, not sure i see the point of getting your service capacity to a minimum. Maybe it helps some people.
Most peoples house loads are more steady, so you can use the bill kwhr. Your example is not the norm, but is still a valid point for non regular usage. You have to size circuits for instantaneous and steady state, so your service capacity is no different.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I didn't want a smart meter, got one anyways. My bills are higher now.

Our demand window is 30 min, sliding. Only commercial pays demand charges here.

 

[ultrarunner]

I noticed a spike after the smart meter was installed...

One account that I have had for 17 years always had no usage... just paid the minimum
The ONLY load was from a very small sprinkler transformer.

When the smart meter went in I started to show a couple of kW each month... nothing changed but the meter... I'm guess it is much more sensitive to minute loads?

At the cabin I would have everything off and still recorded minute usage... last summer I opened the knife switch below the meter and no usage now.