New Garden need help

[BuilderML]

Thanks in advance for the help,
I have a question about putting in a new garden, Size will be 40x60, I am in the process of removing the existing sod/grass. The topsoil that i am removing along with the sod is really nice stuff. This is what i am thinking of doing and would really like your input. I will make a pile of the existing sod/topsoil mix and cover with a tarp about 1-2 weeks to kill of the grass. I am also bringing in 18 yards of 1" screened topsoil. Also 18 yards of manure, Mix it all together spread it out and hope for the best. My main question would be is the pile with the grass that will hopefully have been killed off be ok to use in the mix or should i just set it aside. Any other ideas you guys and gals might have would be great.
These are a few pictures half way done before the rain started

 

[sam5570]

Thanks in advance for the help,
I have a question about putting in a new garden, Size will be 40x60, I am in the process of removing the existing sod/grass. The topsoil that i am removing along with the sod is really nice stuff. This is what i am thinking of doing and would really like your input. I will make a pile of the existing sod/topsoil mix and cover with a tarp about 1-2 weeks to kill of the grass. I am also bringing in 18 yards of 1" screened topsoil. Also 18 yards of manure, Mix it all together spread it out and hope for the best. My main question would be is the pile with the grass that will hopefully have been killed off be ok to use in the mix or should i just set it aside. Any other ideas you guys and gals might have would be great.
These are a few pictures half way done before the rain started
View attachment 316937View attachment 316938

i would by all means use the sod on th garden, after all it's top soil. i don't think you are going to kill all the grass by covering it up for a couple weeks. when you un cover it will show back up in about 3 day's. the cow manure will be good.

 

[farmgirl19]

Yes, you will wnat to save and use the topsoil. You can add it to a compost heap, but it will take the summer to kill the grass and seeds. You can then add it into your garden and till it in next Spring. I always have 2 compost heaps going. One that is older, and nothing has been added to recently, so I can use it when and where needed, and the "fresh" one, that will be ready when the first one is close to placed in the garden. Actually, if I had 3, it would be best, but space becomes an issue then, if the piles are very large.

 

[Western]

I think I would have just tilled it under then added the new soil and manure, but I like the easy way:laughing: The guys have given you good advice, definitely keep it, it's already paid for when you bought the place:thumbsup:

 

[farmgirl19]

I think I would have just tilled it under then added the new soil and manure, but I like the easy way:laughing: The guys have given you good advice, definitely keep it, it's already paid for when you bought the place:thumbsup:

That would have worked too, but it looked like he had already taken up the sod. And not knowing if the soil is sandy, or clay, tilling might be harder than what he has done, if it has a clay consistency.

 

[BuilderML]

Rain let up enough to finish the other half, Figured i would finally post some pictures of the tractor. If i had a tiller i would of gone that route. No clay around here just sandy gravel luckly this was farm land many years ago so i have a nice amount of topsoil.

 

[dave1949]

Nice project. I think you did the best thing by stripping the sod off. You will be fertilizing and watering the garden, tilled in sod would have ideal growing conditions. You would be weeding and pulling grass clumps all summer IMO.

I vote for composting the sod. Make piles of a size you can easily get at and turn with your FEL several times this summer, add some of the manure to the piles too. Throw on grass trimmings and clippings, kitchen non-meat scraps, weeds you pull, leaves in the fall and keep turning it. All those plant things will offset the amount of dirt hanging on the sod.

18 yards of manure for 40x60 sounds like plenty. I think you will have quite a bit leftover and that's a good thing. Is it relatively fresh manure or has it been composted?

 

[BuilderML]

Nice project. I think you did the best thing by stripping the sod off. You will be fertilizing and watering the garden, tilled in sod would have ideal growing conditions. You would be weeding and pulling grass clumps all summer IMO.

I vote for composting the sod. Make piles of a size you can easily get at and turn with your FEL several times this summer, add some of the manure to the piles too. Throw on grass trimmings and clippings, kitchen non-meat scraps, weeds you pull, leaves in the fall and keep turning it. All those plant things will offset the amount of dirt hanging on the sod.

18 yards of manure for 40x60 sounds like plenty. I think you will have quite a bit leftover and that's a good thing. Is it relatively fresh manure or has it been composted?

I have not found someone to deliver a tri axle load of manure yet. I would think it would be fresh. Good thing my neighbors aren't close by.

 

[Stimw]

Buy, borrow, beg, rent or steal a tiller for your tractor!!
I used a rear tine 32" walk behind tiller on my garden for a few years and then found a 4'er on CL for $600. The difference is day and night!
The 4'er makes my soil like saw dust it grinds it up so fine, see the pic.
Knowing what I know now, if I needed a tractor tiller I would buy new if I could not find a used one, they are that good.
I know money can be tight and it might not be doable, then put it on your list.

 

[Western]

Buy, borrow, beg, rent or steal a tiller for your tractor!!
I used a rear tine 32" walk behind tiller on my garden for a few years and then found a 4'er on CL for $600. The difference is day and night!
The 4'er makes my soil like saw dust it grinds it up so fine, see the pic.
Knowing what I know now, if I needed a tractor tiller I would buy new if I could not find a used one, they are that good.
I know money can be tight and it might not be doable, then put it on your list.

Agree 1000%!
I have a 5', I bought it when I bought the tractor because I knew it would be hard to convince me to drop $2500 later:laughing: Not good between rows, but does a wonderful job and allows you to use a small (tiny, light) tiller or hoe to manage the weeds.

I would have not had a second thought of tilling in that grass with my PTO tiller, unless its a grass that has runners like Bermuda, tilling Bermuda when it's not blistering hot makes it want to grow thicker in my experience.

 

[dave1949]

I have not found someone to deliver a tri axle load of manure yet. I would think it would be fresh. Good thing my neighbors aren't close by.

My guesstimate, others can give theirs, is you could use 4 yards max. for the first application, and a tiller would be your friend for mixing non-composted manure into the soil. Do you have plans for, or have a tiller?

A tractor tiller is nice I'm sure, but chances are you could only use a big tiller twice a year, spring and fall. During the growing season for weed control or succession plantings a row or two at a time, that would be too big to be useful.

BTW, not everyone agrees that tilling is the best method. I've never tested the idea but the concern is upsetting the beneficial microbial layers in the soil and killing all the earth worms--which some people purchase to put in their gardens, or raise them (vermiculture) for the castings-rich compost. I could see a "no-till" garden once you have built up the soil with plenty of organic matter which makes hand tools much easier to use. But that takes several years at least.

 

[kevin37b]

Spray with RU , till , plant .

 

[Ted Summey]

I know a lot of folks wait until spring to start garden prep, but I much prefer to amend and till in the fall. For a spring prep it looks like you are doing what needs to be done. Fresh manure is tough on plants and seeds because the nitrogen tends to dehydrate the plants. Cow manure has the least nitrogen, then horse sheep and poultry manure being the most nitrogen rich.

Fresh manure needs to be composted before application to the garden. This is especially true for cow manure because it WILL have weed seeds in it otherwise. Properly composted manure will not have any recognizable straw, seeds or shavings in it. It will be the consistency of potting soil, fine and crumbly.

Fresh manure will cause lots of top growth on your plants but they need P and K in addition to the N to make nice fruits and veggies. P for root growth and K for fruit development. Plus it stinks.

I apply any amendments in the fall and till them in. I would prefer leaf compost to manure for a spring prepped garden and wait until fall to add composted manure and or another round of leaf compost.

 

[dave1949]

Ted, good pointers on composted manure.

I would prefer composted manure also, but if not over applied, and well integrated into the soil, I think some fresh cow manure is better than no manure. Be interesting to see what sort of manure Builder gets.

I used to get a truck load of sort of half-composted cow manure every couple of years and used that as a base material for composting leaves and such. They used wood chips for bedding, so it was a bit "woody" for a while.

I once watched a friend in Germany plant flowers-live plants-in raw cow manure muck with no soil and thought well, that is going to burn. But it didn't, and she had been doing it for years.

Something to watch for in the material that goes into your composting, killer compost: Killer Compost Update: Herbicide Damage Still a Major Problem - Organic Gardening - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

 

[BuilderML]

Couldn't get much done today work and rain are not a good mix. I think the manure i am going to end up with is fresh manure.Tomorrow is suppose to be nice so topsoil will be delivered and i'll be able to move the sod out. Thanks again for the help.:drink: Would you add some 10/10/10 or 19/19/19 to the soil?

 

[sam5570]

Couldn't get much done today work and rain are not a good mix. I think the manure i am going to end up with is fresh manure.Tomorrow is suppose to be nice so topsoil will be delivered and i'll be able to move the sod out. Thanks again for the help.:drink: Would you add some 10/10/10 or 19/19/19 to the soil?

i would get it all mixed up good and do a soil sample to see what if anything you need. the 19-19-19 is some powerful fertlizer i'm not sure i would put that with the manure.

 

[farmgirl19]

Personally, I'd just use the manure and compost, and know that your garden will get better every year! I have had new areas that I have started each year, and manure makes a great substrate, if mixed with the current soil. No need to add artificial anyting.

 

[Ted Summey]

If the manure is fresh try 3 9 9 or similar low N fertilizer until you can determine the need for N. you can add N later as needed. Too much N is not good!

 

[muddstopper]

One thing I have learned over the years is that soil testing can be your friend. I have built several new garden spots over the years. Usually in clay and slate rock conditions. A soil test will tell you what your soil needs to be prodcuctive. Simply adding manures and compost willy nilly is just guessing at best and you can just as easily overdo the compost and manures as you can the chemical fertilizers. Different manures will have different nutrient levels. Pastured cattle manures will generally be higher in Potassium (K) and nitrogen (N) than it will be in Phosphorous (P). If the cow manure comes from a feed lot where the cattle are fatten on grain, dont be surprised if the P levels are higher than the K. The manure will be the result of what goes in and grains contain more P than K and grass contains more K than P. Horse manure is considered a balance manure with almost equal parts P&K. Chicken manures are high in N, but almost balanced in P and K. Sheep manures are similar to chicken but can contain higher N levels. Alpaca manures are very high in N, more so than either chicken or sheep.

All manures should be composted prior to using. This reduces chances of a nitrogen growth spurts and also helps reduce the chance of salmonia and eboili bacteria contamination. The compost doesnt neccesary need to be incorporated into the soil and actuall using the compost as a mulch will produce better results and help control weeds. It can be incorporated at the end of growing season when you are getting your garden ready for next year. I heavily mulch between my rows each year. it conserves moisture and provides a ready food source for the microbes. By the end of the growing season, it pretty much dirt and I just till it into the soil and plant a cover crop.

While tilling the soil helps to break it up, making everything easier to work in, excessive tilling destroys the soil structure and will create a stratisfied layer of loose soil and compacted soil. The surface just under the tilled surface will look just like the top surface, slick and smooth. If you are going to till every year, consider adding a subsoiler to your implement list to breakup the subsurface of the soil for better water penetration.

In my experience a no till garden where the seeds are just drilled in and the sod left in place between rows, will usually hold more moisture and produce more crops than a tilled and plowed garden. Especially if the rows are left wide enough to run a mower between rows. Like most folks, I dont use that method, preferring to plow and till instead. Never have figured out why I want to work harder than necessary just to grow a garden, I guess its because thats the way I was taught growing up.