bp fick
Super Member
Bah!!! Here's that second photo.
I cannot get it to show as more than a thumbnail.. Oh well.
I cannot get it to show as more than a thumbnail.. Oh well.
New garden - When to add amendments
- Thread starter RedDirt
- Start date
- Views: 5650
jinman
Rest in Peace
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2001
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- 20,387
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- Texas - Wise County - Sunset
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- NHTC45D, NH LB75B, Ford Jubilee
Ray (RedDirt), I think you have the sequence right, but you sure have a lot of wood chips and sawdust in your mix. I think it will suck all the available nitrogen right out of the soil and slow the decomposition process. If I were you, I'd add some heavy nitrogen fertilizer (urea or anhydrous ammonia) without weed killer and maybe even some dry molasses as complex sugars to make sure my soil stayed "hot" all winter. I just think you will find there is not enough nitrogen available to decompose all that wood material and have any left over for the plants you'll put in next spring.
charlz
Elite Member
I would definitely break ground and start adding amendments now. Test your soil now for at least the PH level so you have a starting point on what needs to be added. PH is tough to change if it is far from 'ideal' generally goes right back to where it was every year. The 'ideal' for gardens is in the area of 6.5. PH is easy to test with one of those home gardener soil kits.
I would likely go with plow, add/spread amendments, disk them in and leave it for a few weeks or the rest of the year. Depending on your weather things might break down very quickly or not at all. Use your judgment with the plow to ensure you are not 'burying' your topsoil.
Wood chips and the like I have found will eventually give you a nice black soil with good tithe... but it takes a long time. Since your area is/was forest soil I would imagine it is already pretty dark soil. I would mostly concentrate on adding organics as needed to increase the tithe and lessen the likelihood of it being hard/crusty soil when it dries out. Seems like you can never have enough compost, that stuff disappears as soon as you put it down
The oak leaves I would pile or put in a bin (if in a windy area) getting them good and wet as you stack them up. They will start to break down and eventually make 'leaf mold'... a 6-12 month process. This makes great mulch to add to your garden in summer for water retention and weed control. Certain worms are also attracted to rotting leaves which is another benefit for your garden.
For fertilizer use I am getting more and more towards just incorporating it near/around the plants. If you broadcast it you are just feeding the weeds between the rows. Sometimes I use 16-16-16 a few times through the year other times, for my rows on drip, I will use Osmocote (slow release) and just put it right at the emitter.
Be super paranoid about what compost and manure you add to your garden... if it is not sterile (hot composted) you are importing yourself a lifetime of weeds For the same reason don't put weeds in your compost pile if they have already set seed and be wary of using lawn clippings mowed in weedy areas.
I would likely go with plow, add/spread amendments, disk them in and leave it for a few weeks or the rest of the year. Depending on your weather things might break down very quickly or not at all. Use your judgment with the plow to ensure you are not 'burying' your topsoil.
Wood chips and the like I have found will eventually give you a nice black soil with good tithe... but it takes a long time. Since your area is/was forest soil I would imagine it is already pretty dark soil. I would mostly concentrate on adding organics as needed to increase the tithe and lessen the likelihood of it being hard/crusty soil when it dries out. Seems like you can never have enough compost, that stuff disappears as soon as you put it down
The oak leaves I would pile or put in a bin (if in a windy area) getting them good and wet as you stack them up. They will start to break down and eventually make 'leaf mold'... a 6-12 month process. This makes great mulch to add to your garden in summer for water retention and weed control. Certain worms are also attracted to rotting leaves which is another benefit for your garden.
For fertilizer use I am getting more and more towards just incorporating it near/around the plants. If you broadcast it you are just feeding the weeds between the rows. Sometimes I use 16-16-16 a few times through the year other times, for my rows on drip, I will use Osmocote (slow release) and just put it right at the emitter.
Be super paranoid about what compost and manure you add to your garden... if it is not sterile (hot composted) you are importing yourself a lifetime of weeds
For the same reason don't put weeds in your compost pile if they have already set seed and be wary of using lawn clippings mowed in weedy areas.
ampsucker
Platinum Member
save yourself a lot of trouble and wasted labor. contact the local university extension office and pay for a 15$ soil sample test. it is the only way to really know what ammendments to add.
red dirt indicateds iron oxides in the soil. you probably do not need iron (a trace mineral available at correct pH) however the big three are in question: N, P and K. clay soils often have plenty of phosporous as it does not leach away or move very easily. potassium moves more easily and can be washed away slowly, whereas nitrogen is very soluable and may only last a season.
they will also tell you if you need lime or sulfur to raise or lower the ph. don't assume just because you have pine needles that you have acidic soil. you need the soil test (take samples from the proper plowing depth with the core tool they will give you) to know how much of any ph adjustment to add. ph change takes place slowly. don't try to guess at this as you can waste a whole year easily with not much to show. if the pH is wrong, plants will get chlorotic yellow patches from not being able to take up trace nutrients. you may also want, for example if you do have acidic soil, to leave a small patch unamended for acid loving plants like blueberrys, black berries, raspberries, etc. if you do need to add lime, you'll want to add dolomitic lime as it provides both Ca and Mg, essential nutrients for good tomatos and other garden plants.
organics are very important in clay soil to help break it up and keep it workable. you'll be adding some every year. compost is all about the C:N ratio. you likely have plenty of carbon in an old forest plot so adding leaves is questionable. plus, in a non compost pile situation, you'll have slow decomposition. in the spring, the uncomposted leaves will serve as a nitrogen sink binding up the N you add and keeping it from your garden plants until the decomposition of the leaves is complete. much better to compost the leaves with an equal amount of greens and then add next year as side dressing or as finished compost.
finally, you need at least 8-10 hours of sunlight. make sure you patch gets this minimum requirement with no tree roots coming in from the sidelines to steal water and nutrients. this often means cleaning a good 50-100' perimeter around the garden area. make your long rows north to south so sunlight can get in between as the sun moves across the sky.
good luck,
amp
red dirt indicateds iron oxides in the soil. you probably do not need iron (a trace mineral available at correct pH) however the big three are in question: N, P and K. clay soils often have plenty of phosporous as it does not leach away or move very easily. potassium moves more easily and can be washed away slowly, whereas nitrogen is very soluable and may only last a season.
they will also tell you if you need lime or sulfur to raise or lower the ph. don't assume just because you have pine needles that you have acidic soil. you need the soil test (take samples from the proper plowing depth with the core tool they will give you) to know how much of any ph adjustment to add. ph change takes place slowly. don't try to guess at this as you can waste a whole year easily with not much to show. if the pH is wrong, plants will get chlorotic yellow patches from not being able to take up trace nutrients. you may also want, for example if you do have acidic soil, to leave a small patch unamended for acid loving plants like blueberrys, black berries, raspberries, etc. if you do need to add lime, you'll want to add dolomitic lime as it provides both Ca and Mg, essential nutrients for good tomatos and other garden plants.
organics are very important in clay soil to help break it up and keep it workable. you'll be adding some every year. compost is all about the C:N ratio. you likely have plenty of carbon in an old forest plot so adding leaves is questionable. plus, in a non compost pile situation, you'll have slow decomposition. in the spring, the uncomposted leaves will serve as a nitrogen sink binding up the N you add and keeping it from your garden plants until the decomposition of the leaves is complete. much better to compost the leaves with an equal amount of greens and then add next year as side dressing or as finished compost.
finally, you need at least 8-10 hours of sunlight. make sure you patch gets this minimum requirement with no tree roots coming in from the sidelines to steal water and nutrients. this often means cleaning a good 50-100' perimeter around the garden area. make your long rows north to south so sunlight can get in between as the sun moves across the sky.
good luck,
amp
bp fick
Super Member
amp's "stuff" is great, great advice.
Get a kit. Test the ph. That's the place to start, for sure. In time, your own tasting is pretty darn accurate, as the human tongue is pretty sensitive to sour or sweet. Now I went and really showed my old timey ness.
Get a kit. Test the ph. That's the place to start, for sure. In time, your own tasting is pretty darn accurate, as the human tongue is pretty sensitive to sour or sweet. Now I went and really showed my old timey ness.
Wineslob
Member
This is what we have in our backyard, and it's DRY shade.
One question about the nitrogen, the local garden center owner told me the nitrogen is "locked up" in the soil. Is this possible with it being soluable?
ampsucker
Platinum Member
"locked up" nitrogen is nitrogen that is released as nitrogen containing objects (green leaves, dead animals, seed meals, amines, proteins, decaying organic matter essentially) decompose and slowly release it. it is available to the plants at the rate it is released.
think of urea and ammonium sulfate granular fertilizers. they easily dissolve in water and will be leached away heavily by a hard rain leaving little in the ground over time. it is not really "locked up".
whereas, chunks of decaying compost are trapped in the soil and can slow release over time right next to the plant's roots.
i use complete organic fertilizer mix which makes use of the protein of seed meals to slow release ammonia-like compounds as it decomposes. you can really smell the ammonia when you open a half used bag of cottenseed meal!
amp
think of urea and ammonium sulfate granular fertilizers. they easily dissolve in water and will be leached away heavily by a hard rain leaving little in the ground over time. it is not really "locked up".
whereas, chunks of decaying compost are trapped in the soil and can slow release over time right next to the plant's roots.
i use complete organic fertilizer mix which makes use of the protein of seed meals to slow release ammonia-like compounds as it decomposes. you can really smell the ammonia when you open a half used bag of cottenseed meal!
amp
OP
RedDirt
Gold Member
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Great info guys! Thanks. I'll give all this the attention it needs and reply in kind later. At midnight last night I had spent 19 of the previous 26 hours fixing wife's computer and now I am way behind work for pay vs. work for fun.
and now I am way behind work for pay vs. work for fun.not so, Pretty area, as I recall it is first or second knuckle, middle finger as Michigan folks show you where they live
bp fick
Super Member
not so, Pretty area, as I recall it is first or second knuckle, middle finger as Michigan folks show you where they live
Thanks. We love it. Actually, Beaver Creek is a "double" township, instead of being 6 miles square, it is almost 6 x 12 miles. Yet, only 1700 people. We only have two registered businesses. We even "lost" our country store, The Creek, to closure. Gotta drive a longish way to get just about anything. Like I said, we love it.