new hay farmer need some wise counsel

catdieselsmoke · Feb 12, 2009

gentlemen,
i am going to be farming 50 acres of alfalfa this year and i am new to the hay world. i am getting as much reseach done as possible so please cut me some slack if i sound "green", its because i am!! anyway, i will produce (in theory) about 4000 bales my first year and 10000 my 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th being a little less. what kind of baler or equipment should i go with?? i have been reading up on the john deere 336 baler and some new holland equipment but i do not have enough experience with this equipment to know what to go with. PLEASE help me in this decision i will take any advise you throw at me. please list model numbers when you refer to the equipment so i have some idea what to research. thanks gents,
ryan

jimg · Feb 13, 2009

If youve never done or helped w/ anything like this before perhaps you could get someone to do it for you for the first year or two. That way youd get the hay up and learn at the same time. Cash flow might also be easier this way. In the mean time as you learn you could look into equipment and know better what to buy. The bale package would depend on your target market. If horses its pretty likely theyll want a small square bale. If dairy they probably want round or big square bales. HTH some. Where are you located?

catdieselsmoke · Feb 13, 2009

central indiana

flusher · Feb 13, 2009

catdieselsmoke said:
gentlemen,
i am going to be farming 50 acres of alfalfa this year and i am new to the hay world. i am getting as much reseach done as possible so please cut me some slack if i sound "green", its because i am!! anyway, i will produce (in theory) about 4000 bales my first year and 10000 my 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th being a little less. what kind of baler or equipment should i go with?? i have been reading up on the john deere 336 baler and some new holland equipment but i do not have enough experience with this equipment to know what to go with. PLEASE help me in this decision i will take any advise you throw at me. please list model numbers when you refer to the equipment so i have some idea what to research. thanks gents,
ryan

I assume you're into dry land farming and don't need irrigation where you are in Indiana.

My neighbor has three 10 acre irrigated alfalfa fields. He uses a NH 500 3-twine baler set up to be self-propelled.

The bales weigh 100-130 lb. He can bale 10 acres in about 45 minutes with this rig.

To rake the crop he uses a pair of side delivery rakes on a single hitch to speed up the process

He and his helpers buck the bales onto a wagon by hand. You'll probably want a bale accumulator that attaches to your baler. There are several vendors for this type of equipment. Just Goggle "bale accumulator".

He uses an 8-10 ft wide Brillion seeder for planting.

Discing is done with a 12-ft tandem disc pulled by either a D7 Cat or a Massey Fergusion 294 4WD tractor.

RWolf · Feb 13, 2009

Me thinks jimg was refering to are you selling primarily to horse owners or cattle operations. The reason is although horse owners like alfalfa it is more of a diary cattle forage.

Good luck on your operation.

JasG · Feb 13, 2009

How mechanically inclined are you? Even new equipment needs adjustment and repair from time to time. Also how old equipment are you looking at? If it's JD 336 vintage I would say that was the best baler of it's day. Today New Holland and Deere both make very good product. New Holland back then made a good baler, I feel Deere made a better bale at the time.

1st we need some information.

Is the ground Hilly?
Are you going to drop on the ground? Or use a thrower/kicker?
Do you want a disc mower or a sickle bar? Mower only or a conditioner?
What is the humidity in the summer?
Are you going to look for a rotary rake or a bar rake?
How large a tractor are you going to use?

All of these make a difference in the answer.

If you search the posts here a lot of information has already been gone over on different types of equipment and models.

How many cuttings are you figuring to get per season? 10000 bales on 50 acers of alfalfa seems high to me.

Robert_in_NY · Feb 14, 2009

Where are you going to store the hay you bale? This will have a big say in the type of equipment you go with. If you have a good pole barn with plenty of ceiling height then you can use just about any system but if you are stacking in a loft you are limited.

We can help you more if you can give us a lot more details as to your current conditions and what your market is.

Where I am I farm all flat ground. I cut with a Gehl discbine (9'), rake with a New Holland 256 (would prefer a large rotary that allows me to rake two swaths at once), ted with a Vicon RS 510T (17') and bale with a New Holland 575. I currently have a model 72 thrower on it and use 4-5 kicker wagons but am trying to change to a Kuhns accumulator as I can't handle the bales by hand like I use to.

Tractor wise I am using a New Holland TN65 (50 horse give or take) to cut and bale with. I use a Ford 640 and Ford 1920 to rake and ted with. I have a Ford 7710-II still but my dealer stole it from me and that was the tractor I prefered on the cutter and baler as it was 120 horsepower and had the weight to handle both jobs with ease. It also had a cab which made it nice during the hot summer days. The TN was used on the tedder when I had access to my 7710 as it is a much more comfortable tractor to operate. The rake was on the 1920 and the 640 was a spare or used for other jobs. I would have loved a 75-90 hp tractor dedicated to my mower as depending on the weather I am cutting and baling on the same day (different sections) so I am changing over often each year.

jimg · Feb 14, 2009

RWolf said:
Me thinks jimg was refering to are you selling primarily to horse owners or cattle operations. The reason is although horse owners like alfalfa it is more of a diary cattle forage.

Good luck on your operation.

Yes & no...there are quite a few race horses in this area and straight alfalfa and grass mixes are consumed by them. Many of the dairies have since gone to factory waste for feed. Perhaps thats not the way of it in IN.

Mickey_Fx · Feb 14, 2009

Been many years since I had a small custom haying business. IMO a lot of what you will need and how haying is done in your area will dictate a lot of things.

As for Tractor, something in the 50hp range could handle the chores. I Had a MF 165D and could do all I needed. There were times on larger jobs when a second tractor could have been put to use for things like raking.

Around here 1st cutting of alfalfa and clover were a bear due to the rapid growth and wet springs. Crop would be leggy and most likely laying down due to all the rains. These conditions called for a mower/conditioner, a tedder and the baler of your choice. Around here sq bales are still king.

Under these conditions you don't want to use a conventional side delivery rake as it just roped the long crop and didn't promote drying. I had a unusual side delivery rake that could do windrows or tedd, no roping of the crop. Had a separate 2 row tedder when the conditions called for it.

I had a new JD 336 baler and IMO is was a mixed bag as to durability. Lost about 5 needles the first season before I learned the timing info in the manual was incorrect. Had a knotter frame break the fist season as well. The replacement was a gen purpose item and needed some rework depending upon which model baler is was being used on. Also the main bearing on the plunger was undersized IMO as I would go through 1 or 2 a season. Maybe I was running it too hard as I was punching out a 50# bale about every 10 sec. Oh, typ yield around here was about 4T/A for 1st cutting.

For my operation I didn't need any equip for gathering or stacking the hay. Do think for you some type of accumulator, stack hand etc would be called for.

Best advise, get local information as to equipment needed and correct methods to use. Doesn't take too long before you will be modifying the advise received to things that work best for you.

flusher · Feb 15, 2009

catdieselsmoke said:
central indiana

Forgot to mention that my neighbor mows his alfalfa with an old NH swather that you can see in the backgound of the 1st photo I posted.

sixdogs · Feb 15, 2009

Baling alfalfa is way harder than it looks and an eternity of experience and horse sense is required before you get to the part about the weather. And right after that is acid treatment which is most-likely a mandate in Indiana. You could spend from $15,000 plus labor and workmans comp if you already have the barns, land and know John Walton or have a background in mechanical engineering and a minor in jerry-rigging. Don't take any checks and don't plan on making a profit.

You could also spend $150,000 plus labor plus workman's comp and live a relatively easy life. That's if you can control the weather. My vote is to have someone else do it for you, as stated above, for a few years until you get the hang of it. Either that or pony up the $$ for the school of hard knocks.

I used to have a malcontent that kept trying to beat me down for my beautful hay. He finally asked..."Good grief, how much can it cost to put up a bale of hay?" I told him $150,000.
I explained "that was for the first one. The second one was only $75,000." I said if you want to buy a whole bunch and have the cash--no checks-- we could get down to the price you're looking to pay."

bill in ny · Feb 15, 2009

catdieselsmoke, i use a jd 336 kicker baler, a new holland 258 rake, a sitrex 17 foot tedder, a new holland 1410 9' disc mower, conditioner, and five kicker wagons. we do around 7,000 bales a year. the tractor is 85hp 4wd with cab. luckily my youngest son works on our horse farm so he has a lot of the hay done before i get home from work.

bill in ny · Feb 15, 2009

forgot to say that we have two other tractors to do the raking and tedding.

matt21 · Feb 17, 2009

I bale with a JD 337 twine baler, New Idea 9' disc mower, Ford 3-pt side delivery rake, and a Case IH 485 tractor (43 PTO hp). I baled around 2,700 bales last year. The most money i made was doing custom baling jobs. All i had to do was cut, rake, & bale. That made it easy money. I bale all grass hay though. And i can see where alfalfa could run up costs quite a bit. Right now the only costs i have are diesel, twine, oil, etc. I don't fertilize or spray for weeds as the fields i bale are pretty weed free on their own. I am still considering getting out of square baling and switching to round baling though. That way i could get more custom baling jobs. It would be a lot easier on me since i don't have a good place to store the hay anymore or an automated handling system.

koykermfg · Feb 18, 2009

Koyker has just came out with a new bale caddie, call into the factory and they will send you a video. It will do small squares in a 8 or 12 pack configuration. the toll free number is 800-456-1107

Scott

Lazy J · Feb 18, 2009

50 acres of good hay is at least 10,000 small square bales!!!

That is a boat load of hay to be making right out of the starting gate with no experience. Not a situation I would want to be in.

I'd look at doing 10 acres as a primer then getting more ground into hay production next year.

Jim

chh · Feb 18, 2009

I do some custom baling and bale my own hay to sell(all grass hay, no alfalfa and all round bales). Currently have well north of 100 grand

in equipment after getting out of it for a few years and starting over again last year. I would defintely advise you to get somebody to do it for you to start or to find a neighbor that has the equipment that would let you help him in exchange for doing your hay or partner with you in it. A couple of years of hands on experience will do a lot more than any advice we can give you on here. Local conditions affect how the hay needs to be done and your target market will make a huge difference on the type of equipment you might need. Many dairies now will not use small square bales and only want large square bales, horse owners like small squares, ect....

Good luck

matt21 · Feb 19, 2009

matt21 said:
I bale with a JD 337 twine baler, New Idea 9' disc mower, Ford 3-pt side delivery rake, and a Case IH 485 tractor (43 PTO hp). I baled around 2,700 bales last year. The most money i made was doing custom baling jobs. All i had to do was cut, rake, & bale. That made it easy money. I bale all grass hay though. And i can see where alfalfa could run up costs quite a bit. Right now the only costs i have are diesel, twine, oil, etc. I don't fertilize or spray for weeds as the fields i bale are pretty weed free on their own. I am still considering getting out of square baling and switching to round baling though. That way i could get more custom baling jobs. It would be a lot easier on me since i don't have a good place to store the hay anymore or an automated handling system.

Forgot to mention, i have just under $10,000 invested in all the equipment i have. The only weak link i have is the rake. If i modified it to be a standard pull rake instead of a 3-pt mounted, i could very comfortably do 10,000 bales a year. If you are willing to put a little bit of work into your equipment before season, you can pick up some great deals. You just have to be at the right place at the right time.

Robert_in_NY · Feb 19, 2009

matt21 said:
Forgot to mention, i have just under $10,000 invested in all the equipment i have. The only weak link i have is the rake. If i modified it to be a standard pull rake instead of a 3-pt mounted, i could very comfortably do 10,000 bales a year. If you are willing to put a little bit of work into your equipment before season, you can pick up some great deals. You just have to be at the right place at the right time.

I have around $25k invested in just my hay equipment. Everything was lightly used but one kicker wagon that I bought new. This doesn't include the cost of any of my tractors though as they are used on my farm regardless to the hay operation. The 7710 was bought to help haying and tillage but more so for hay so I guess you could add that in which if I recall was around $15k.

Regardless to new or used you are going to have break downs and are going to have repair bills. It is just part of haying. I looked for a long time and bought the best equipment I could for the price I wanted to pay. I could have bought real cheap but the equipment around here that was real cheap generally was going to cost a fortune to fix up properly and parts were possibly going to be an issue. I definitely made sure I could get parts easily for my equipment before I bought anything. There was a lot of equipment that was decent and affordable but parts support was a serious issue here and why I didn't buy those items.

deereguy · Feb 19, 2009

Alfalfa hay is definitely the queen of hays. Made correctly, you can get a premuim for your efforts, if that same hay gets rained on during the process- quality goes down as well as price. I would hire the first year or so done, watch what he does, how he does it, when he does it, and what equipment he uses. Find out what your target market is- again smalls for horses, large square for dairy, rounds for beef or ? A large square baler will be an investment of $30,00 for a decent used (3'x3'x7') and need around 125HP tractor, small squares and rounds and be done with much less horsepower. I would try to get the best equipment you can afford, I'm in central-western Ohio and a 4 day window of dry weather in May is quite a blessing to get hay done. Breakdowns occur- hopefully it is just a shear pin that can be replaced in the field, anything other than that- causes more stress. Another tool that I feel is a must have is a Delmhorst (or other brand) Moisture Meter, having a hand held with a remote sensor on the baler so I can watch moisture as we bale and then probe it after its stacked as it sweats to make sure it doesn't get too hot. We have a 2 person operation with 3 or so tractors, a self-propelled 14' haybine, 17' tedder, twin bar rakes, in-line baler, and a NH stack wagon- currently doing 22 acres and will have an additional 25 acres ready in the spring. I know of a dairy farm that cuts alfalfa every 3 weeks, not sure if its quality hay or just to say they make hay- all summer long. I haven't been doing this very long but I tend to spend my winters reading and learning EVERYTHING I can about hay and farming. There are some good books available on-line and a few at TSC if that's close.

Good Luck!!