New Septic System Troubles

[aczlan]

So is the bottom of the trench clay? Seems that there isn't enough percolation under the new layer of gravel/rock and its just ponding.

Aaron Z

 

[RNeumann]

Here are some very basic design guidelines. The chart is based on 2' wide trenches with standard (rock and pipe- sounds like what you have) design. The number of feet decreases a bit with 3' wide trenches.
Septic DrainField Size Determination Methods: how big should the drainfield be &map what leachfield or absorption bed capacity is needed?

 

[CADplans]

New York state is not far from Pennsylvania,,
maybe a similar septic system is needed?

I hear a LOT about the mounds used in PA,,, that might be the needed answer?

Elevated Sand Mounds for On-lot Wastewater Treatment — Water Quality — Penn State Extension

Also, you can Google search "Pennsylvania leach mound" and get lots of info.

 

[jrdepew]

Two things stand out. 1) my original comment above about getting below the clay. I'll follow up and say a perk test would be valuable at this point. 2) my spider senses were way up when I read 30' of leach line. That seems way to short. A typical 3/2 house with typical soil needs 150'-200' of leach line. You are way under 100'. Adding between the two existing lines doesn't add much. Their is a space requirement between lines- both for evaporation and leaching.

I looked at the as-built again. Here is a snippet:



According to this, we had 4x 30' drain lines originally. These were placed in 10' wide rock beds. So that would be about 120'

The area between the two rock beds is what was dug up, and an additional 30' added, with a significantly thicker layer of rock than the existing 10' beds had. This was done to get through the organics layer. Although, because the trench filled with water so fast, who knows if they fully got through the organics layer.

We are in a very low spot in the country, and the soil here is typically sandy/loamy, with some clay mixed in. Even the drainage ditches will hold water for a couple days after a storm. But our house has the advantage of being built up on 2-3' of heavy sand fill. We have neighbors on either side that are not built up, older homes, and their septic system is working fine. I do not know how much drain line they have overall.

Thanks for all the posts and information!!

-Joe

 

[jrdepew]

New York state is not far from Pennsylvania,,
maybe a similar septic system is needed?

I hear a LOT about the mounds used in PA,,, that might be the needed answer?

Elevated Sand Mounds for On-lot Wastewater Treatment — Water Quality — Penn State Extension

Also, you can Google search "Pennsylvania leach mound" and get lots of info.

I should have updated my profile...I have moved to Johns Island, South Carolina.

I am familiar with the sand mounds, because I have been in PA very often. They also used them on the island I live on now. The issue is that sand mounds were only available on double lots (about .8 acre in this case). My house is on a single lot (0.4 acre). Unfortunately, I left a lot of land behind when I moved from NY to SC, but I just couldn't afford a large plot of land in the area I wanted to live down here.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[RNeumann]

I looked at the as-built again. Here is a snippet:

View attachment 508097

According to this, we had 4x 30' drain lines originally. These were placed in 10' wide rock beds. So that would be about 120'

The area between the two rock beds is what was dug up, and an additional 30' added, with a significantly thicker layer of rock than the existing 10' beds had. This was done to get through the organics layer. Although, because the trench filled with water so fast, who knows if they fully got through the organics layer.

We are in a very low spot in the country, and the soil here is typically sandy/loamy, with some clay mixed in. Even the drainage ditches will hold water for a couple days after a storm. But our house has the advantage of being built up on 2-3' of heavy sand fill. We have neighbors on either side that are not built up, older homes, and their septic system is working fine. I do not know how much drain line they have overall.

Thanks for all the posts and information!!

-Joe

Ok that makes more sense. An "as built" is a drawing of something that is existing. I'm guessing that drawing is the drawing of the repair?
Leach fields are required to have 100% replacement areas. That may end up in that area. If the soil layering is consistent with the neighbors and you brought in 2-3' of nice sand I'm guessing the leach lines will need to be about 6' deep. A test pit can be dug to verify the soil layering. A perk test down at the leach line depth would help too. If it was perked the test was done on that top layer which isn't your reality.

 

[jrdepew]

Ok that makes more sense. An "as built" is a drawing of something that is existing. I'm guessing that drawing is the drawing of the repair?
Leach fields are required to have 100% replacement areas. That may end up in that area. If the soil layering is consistent with the neighbors and you brought in 2-3' of nice sand I'm guessing the leach lines will need to be about 6' deep. A test pit can be dug to verify the soil layering. A perk test down at the leach line depth would help too. If it was perked the test was done on that top layer which isn't your reality.

That drawing is what was done when the system was originally designed. It does not include the new "repair" line, which is located between the two rock beds shown in that drawing. I asked for a new as-built and asked if it was submitted to the county. The engineer said that they don't generate an as-built for repairs and there is no need to submit anything. Is that normal?

The septic installer just showed up and took pictures. They suggested the same thing to me that they originally did, months ago!! "Bring a couple loads of dirt in to cover the low spots and get some grass growing...hopefully that will tighten everything up and it will work fine". This to me, seems like total crap. There is 12" of soil over the rock at the area of the current blow-out, bringing that up to 15-16" is just going to ensure that the next time the system blows out, it will be in a different area (the new low point in the system, wherever that may be).

The installer also said that they have this same issue at another site, where the original land clearer left the organics layer intact, and the fill sand was brought in on top of it. They ended up having to install a system with a pump on that site :thumbdown:

My other worry is now going to my foundation....if the layer of organics was not cleared, and the sand that my pad is poured on was brought in...how long until the decay of that organics layer results in foundation issues? Maybe I shouldn't be worried, but not knowing is a scary thing.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[RNeumann]

If the house hasn't moved I'd stop with that worry! .

I don't know if they needed to pull a new permit to do repair work. That depends on LJHA. My guts says yes though. They don't need a pump system if it perks at a reasonable depth. If the neighbors have no issues I'd dig a pit and check the soil layering. I'm guessing you will want to be down about 6'- this is based on the imported material and the neighbors not having issues.
The mound idea the installer suggested may work but may not. Without some type of testing he/you are shot gunning this. If it doesn't work you have a literal sh** show on your hands with tons of extra material onsite. Maybe not an issue on a large site. But with 4/10 acre you don't have a lot of space to lose the material.

 

[jrdepew]

If the house hasn't moved I'd stop with that worry! .

I don't know if they needed to pull a new permit to do repair work. That depends on LJHA. My guts says yes though. They don't need a pump system if it perks at a reasonable depth. If the neighbors have no issues I'd dig a pit and check the soil layering. I'm guessing you will want to be down about 6'- this is based on the imported material and the neighbors not having issues.
The mound idea the installer suggested may work but may not. Without some type of testing he/you are shot gunning this. If it doesn't work you have a literal sh** show on your hands with tons of extra material onsite. Maybe not an issue on a large site. But with 4/10 acre you don't have a lot of space to lose the material.

House has only been standing for a year...hopefully it doesn't do any moving on me!

Thanks for the input! It has been and is continuing to be valuable. I think you are right...

If the soil test shows that we need to dig down 6'...wouldn't they have to tear the whole system out and replace it?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[RNeumann]

The existing is doing a little.......not a lot. I'd be inclined to add a line or 2 at a depth below the clay before a complete R&R. I'm surprised they didn't get into the good soil when they added before. Seeing the photo of the water gushing out of the existing fields shows it isn't leaching into the ground. They should have dug down till all the effluent leached into the ground- this would indicate a good perk number (minutes to the inch).

 

[jrdepew]

Quick update....

3.5" of rain today...system is totally full. Sitting here covered in sweat from the gym and afraid to shower :thumbdown:

Builder call septic company and they are sending a truck tomorrow between 11 and 2.

It is nice that they are quick to respond to my calls when there is an emergency situation...but this is getting wayyyyyyy long in the tooth now.

Builder says next step is some fill dirt, sod, and gutters on the house...I don't see how that will fix the field itself. I told the builder my concerns and he thinks gutters and sod will work. I told him that I think the septic company is blowing smoke...

-Joe

 

[boggen]

getting water off of dirt/gravel driveways, and then into ditches, and then making sure ditches carry water way...really helps dirt/gravel driveways.

gutters on sheds and homes, in cold areas of the world. really help more so when frost heave comes into play, and/or basements and getting water in basements. and making sure the water gets down the gutters and then is routed away from home.

if they are looking at attempting to build up the area were leach field is. to mound it up. so rain water runs off and away from leach field. and also add gutters to home. so no water is headed towards the leach field but to a lower spot. they are attempting to dry the spot up. instead of turning into a stinky bog.

a general guide line for placement leach fields. is that the area actual drains rain water away. and in that not actually being a low spot were water collects.

i briefly skimmed thread, so maybe i missed something. the handful of pictures do not really tell the tale. of how your property landscape is as far as were run off rain water comes and goes. one picture kinda shows leach line on a hill. and then another picture it looks like leach field is in a low spot of the yard.

=============
it has been to long for me to remember "percolation tests". but if you have a 3pt hitch post hole digger. or if you want rent a one man and more likely a 2 man post hole digger. drill down and clean the hole out as far as you can go. drop a tape measure down into it. (preferably a stick tape measure), fill hole up with water. mark water level on tape measure / stick. and start the clock. and see how long it takes for water to go down inch by inch.

i think there is more to peculation tests, i just do not remember without googling it up and reading over it again. somewhere along the lines of locations of test holes, and how hole/s are dug, what might be required for it to be credited as far as an engineer marking it off as ok to rely on reading, or local plumbing permit department / health department license wise that i was done correctly. along with timing and size and depth of holes. and amount of water. time restraint, as in from digging hole. to how long you have till actually doing the test. any longer than X time, and soil may dry out, or rain water gets in. and tests become voided.

 

[PILOON]

Around here a soil engineer's report as to the absorption qualities of the soil is now mandatory, Getting rid of crap is sure getting to be costly.
20 years ago a proper (and still effective) septic system cost about $3000. but today you are close to adding another '0' with new names like Bionest, Ekoflow etc.
Heck they now have circulation pumps in the field runs as well as 'inspection ports' for each field leg.

Gone are the days of a 45 gal drum filled with crushed stone, (good thing),

 

[Tractor Seabee]

'Iv read through all this and am appalled. Your area is probably going through the trauma of rapid build-up we have been contending with on the west coast for years. Cram as many houses into an acre you can coerce local authority to approve. Stuff gets built in swamps and on the side of rock cliffs to get just one more lot. Out here local jurisdictions have started denying building permits for potential problem areas and we now call them "Green Belts". All new plats and even individual lots also have to have an engineered site drainage plan. Around here you are looking at $60-70K before the foundation starts. A house you may pay $200K in your area is probably $3.5-4K out here.

If the house is worth the effort and money it is time for forensic engineering of the whole plat. Getting lawyers in the act w/o serious/recognized independent engineering practice is a waste of your money and lining for their pockets. These guys are just trying to wear you down hoping you will go away till their one year warranty is past. You probably do need to get a judge to extend your warranty for the whole house and lot until all evidence of problems is past. Remember the original building contractor is the only person you have a contract with. All others work for him. If a third party developer (that the contractor bought the lot from) platted out and developed the lots may be liable for the site engineering and development cost probably has some liability also. Talking to the bit players only weakens your hand. Everybody in the developer/contractor chain has an interest in covering their *** not fixing your problem at this point. Eventually a judge will have to tell each one where they lye. Maybe the end result is the developer/contractor team buys you out with damages included.

Ron

 

[TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark]

Builder says next step is some fill dirt, sod, and gutters on the house...I don't see how that will fix the field itself.

It won't. It can't. What's on top has nothing to do with it. Your builder is either an idiot or a crook.


It's long past time you lawyererd up. The longer you wait, the weaker your case.


You are being railroaded to the cleaners and you are paying for the ticket.

 

[downsizingnow48]

They built the wrong system and are hoping to BS and delay and avoid the cost of a complete rebuild.

 

[TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark]

They built the wrong system and are hoping to BS and delay and avoid the cost of a complete rebuild.

Exactly. They will play with him until he gives up, if he doesn't wise up.

 

[TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark]

Sitting here covered in sweat from the gym and afraid to shower :thumbdown:

Joe, here is how you handle problems with work done incorrectly. You stand your ground and insist it be redone, correctly. You will need a lawyer because there are a bunch of bucks at stake, but the principle is the same.

The builder is doing the right thing and getting it taken care of, but it did take some effort on our part.

There's really not much difference in the two situations. Work was done incorrectly, and the only cure is to completely re-do the work.

 

[spokane 1]

read most of the posts and I think your septic guy adding dirt is fine... water peculating upward is a good sign....(let those dam soil scientists smell their problem) and let us bury our lines deeper.

(I wait for the soil science to come in before I decide what systems to use).. heres your system choices......pressure caps,gravity feed,sand filer pools with air aerobic, gravity infiltrator, pressure infiltrator,3 foot wide leech fields 6 foot side leach fields,15 foot wide leach fields, 30 foot wide leech fields. double tanks, double sand pools,

this is just a small list of systems of septic systems available.


do a core sample and if you have clay at 4-5 foot deep you should be able to just cover this with soil and be done.
if your clay is 3 foot deep I recommend abandoning the single line look for your reserve area and install the infiltrator system with no rocks.


most of the thousands of systems ive installed leak upward for a month or two until underground golfer holes fill in and plug or new fissures are carved and the system begins working.
there are so many variables with septic systems its very difficult to sue a installer....they have the act of god on their side.
if its just a small wet spot and the tanks function well just give it more soil....your in a high clay area.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Quick update....

3.5" of rain today...system is totally full. Sitting here covered in sweat from the gym and afraid to shower :thumbdown:

Builder call septic company and they are sending a truck tomorrow between 11 and 2.

It is nice that they are quick to respond to my calls when there is an emergency situation...but this is getting wayyyyyyy long in the tooth now.

Builder says next step is some fill dirt, sod, and gutters on the house...I don't see how that will fix the field itself. I told the builder my concerns and he thinks gutters and sod will work. I told him that I think the septic company is blowing smoke...

-Joe

Johns Island... High water table is also part of your problem. Have you talked to your County Soils Extension Agent? Google soils map for your area, find where you are and you will know immediately what your problem is. County health dept should also be brought in. Kiss your builder goodbye, him and his sub have no idea what they are up against. I lived in SC for 27 years, never assume a builder or tradesman actually knows what they are doing...