"Non-aromatic" fuel

[JasG]

One main point which seems to have been missed is that here in Australia, non-aromatic fuel is only available in places where petrol sniffing has been a problem.
You might even go as far to assume that's why it was developed. I have heard that you can't get high on this stuff.
Places like Alice Springs only sell this type of fuel.
I have only ever seen it in the NT and the Shell site lists where it is available.

That is a sad commentary about people. Just makes you wonder what would make someone want to or be willing to try anything to get high. From, fuel, paint, and glue to drugs like meth I just don't get it. A couple of years ago a woman hit a light pole in a local village. She was huffing keyboard cleaner while driving. One of the side effects of the cleaner is paralysis. So she is driving in a village and doing something that she knew would make her lose control.

It also bothers me, including my own father-inlaw, people who get fuel in a car. Even in the trunk the fumes will make it up where the driver is. His car stinks of gas for weeks after he does this. I've offered many times to get gas for him and he won't let me, always keeps his cans locked in his tool shed.

 

[3930dave]

Sounds like the cans are done Jas.

An intact and functional can shouldn't be venting, much less leaking. That is definitely dangerous. Some people just won't listen, or there may be cognitive issues (aging) going on ?

Rgds, D.

 

[JasG]

Sounds like the cans are done Jas.

An intact and functional can shouldn't be venting, much less leaking. That is definitely dangerous. Some people just won't listen, or there may be cognitive issues (aging) going on ?

Rgds, D.

I see people filling the can while still in the trunk. Even still you can spill some and then place the can inside the car. The gas fumes will end up in the car.

My FIL I do believe has some mental issues, but anytime I say anything it just causes problems. Nothing that I think he could be a danger, but he has declined and does some things that he wouldn't do in the past. The gas in the car though goes back as long as I've known him. Even when he has a truck he uses the car because it uses less fuel.

 

[CliffordK]

I always set the gas can outside of the vehicle for filling, and picking up some gas is always the last stop before heading home. I'm always amazed at what some people will do for a "high" :yuck:

Can you run Coleman White Gas in engines? Perhaps an expensive alternative. It is supposed to be "Naptha" which is a fuel mixture, but also may include aromatics.

 

[3930dave]

I see people filling the can while still in the trunk. Even still you can spill some and then place the can inside the car. The gas fumes will end up in the car.

My FIL I do believe has some mental issues, but anytime I say anything it just causes problems. Nothing that I think he could be a danger, but he has declined and does some things that he wouldn't do in the past. The gas in the car though goes back as long as I've known him. Even when he has a truck he uses the car because it uses less fuel.

Spills and fumes in a vehicle are never good, obviously. That said, whatever station that is allowing people to fuel cans IN a vehicle needs to be reported to your State authorities - starting with the local Fire Captain.

The problem is static, as an ignition source. The island pumps are grounded. Vehicles, by nature of being on rubber tires, are not grounded. The biggest reason laws require cans to be filled out of the vehicle is that as you bring the nozzle close to the can in the vehicle, static electricity (built up on the vehicle) can arc. With the right vapour concentration, the can ignites.

Note that this static ignition problem persists with the cans sitting on the tailgate of a truck - they need to be out of the vehicle entirely.

That gas station needs to have a "Come to Jesus" conversation with the Fire Marshall, before that type of event actually happens.

Good luck with your FIL, those situations are never easy to manage.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

I always set the gas can outside of the vehicle for filling, and picking up some gas is always the last stop before heading home. I'm always amazed at what some people will do for a "high" :yuck:

Can you run Coleman White Gas in engines? Perhaps an expensive alternative. It is supposed to be "Naptha" which is a fuel mixture, but also may include aromatics.

Hmmm.... you might be onto something there..... apparently, Naptha has an even higher energy content than standardized gasoline.

Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If nonE gas "gets disappeared" around my neck of the woods, I may risk trying some Naptha in my oldest, most tired small engine.

Good point !

Rgds, D.

 

[CliffordK]

Spills and fumes in a vehicle are never good, obviously. That said, whatever station that is allowing people to fuel cans IN a vehicle needs to be reported to your State authorities - starting with the local Fire Captain.

The problem is static, as an ignition source. The island pumps are grounded. Vehicles, by nature of being on rubber tires, are not grounded. The biggest reason laws require cans to be filled out of the vehicle is that as you bring the nozzle close to the can in the vehicle, static electricity (built up on the vehicle) can arc. With the right vapour concentration, the can ignites.

Note that this static ignition problem persists with the cans sitting on the tailgate of a truck - they need to be out of the vehicle entirely.

That gas station needs to have a "Come to Jesus" conversation with the Fire Marshall, before that type of event actually happens.

I agree that it is best to fill cans outside of the car.

But, is there any real data about the fire risks? Certainly a car full of fumes isn't pleasant, but it would require a lot of fumes to be explosive.

90% of new gas cans are plastic, and thus less risk from touching the nozzle to the can. I suppose one could still perhaps touch the trigger of the nozzle to something else.

My FIAT 500 (not considered the world's safest car) has the gas tank in the front trunk (rear engine), with a short filling spout. I think some early VW's did this too. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't consider filling the FIAT tank as being significantly different from filling a gas can (and, fuel spills are a big pain).

One can, of course, also fill built-in pickup bed fuel tanks without removing them.

However, it is just pure laziness to not fill a gas can on the ground. Of course here in Oregon there is always a gas station attendant who may be able to assist with putting a full can back into the back of the vehicle.

 

[3930dave]

I agree that it is best to fill cans outside of the car.

But, is there any real data about the fire risks? Certainly a car full of fumes isn't pleasant, but it would require a lot of fumes to be explosive.

90% of new gas cans are plastic, and thus less risk from touching the nozzle to the can. I suppose one could still perhaps touch the trigger of the nozzle to something else.

My FIAT 500 (not considered the world's safest car) has the gas tank in the front trunk (rear engine), with a short filling spout. I think some early VW's did this too. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't consider filling the FIAT tank as being significantly different from filling a gas can (and, fuel spills are a big pain).

One can, of course, also fill built-in pickup bed fuel tanks without removing them.

However, it is just pure laziness to not fill a gas can on the ground. Of course here in Oregon there is always a gas station attendant who may be able to assist with putting a full can back into the back of the vehicle.

1 in 1000, or 1 in a billion - don't know for sure - would be interesting to get input from someone with formal Fire training....

Vehicles are designed to manage gasoline vapours. I've driven quite a few gasoline vehicles; none exhibit the whoosh of vapour pressure that you get undoing the cap on a gas can, esp. on a hot day.

Vapour density is higher, with a portable can, even when compared to a Fiat .

Slide plastic around on carpet, and you can generate static electricity. In this respect, I'd say the "newer" cans are more of an issue than the old metal ones. At a guess, low humidity days, with no wind, are probably the worst case weather wise.

When you take a portable gas can out of a vehicle, and set it on the ground, any static electricity on the can dissipates before you open it up. If somebody is driving around with open cans of gas, that is a whole other kind of crazy....

I don't consider myself a Safety ****, but I do understand the point that has been raised - "Given today's legal climate, if gasoline had been discovered in 2000, there is little chance it would be released to the public".

Gasoline is such a pervasive part of our culture that it is easy to get complacent about the risks.

Rgds, D.

 

[JasG]

I agree that it is best to fill cans outside of the car.

But, is there any real data about the fire risks? Certainly a car full of fumes isn't pleasant, but it would require a lot of fumes to be explosive.

90% of new gas cans are plastic, and thus less risk from touching the nozzle to the can. I suppose one could still perhaps touch the trigger of the nozzle to something else.

My FIAT 500 (not considered the world's safest car) has the gas tank in the front trunk (rear engine), with a short filling spout. I think some early VW's did this too. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't consider filling the FIAT tank as being significantly different from filling a gas can (and, fuel spills are a big pain).

One can, of course, also fill built-in pickup bed fuel tanks without removing them.

However, it is just pure laziness to not fill a gas can on the ground. Of course here in Oregon there is always a gas station attendant who may be able to assist with putting a full can back into the back of the vehicle.

On a TV show several years ago they have video of a truck filling plastic cans in the back and they caught fire. The cause was the static from the fuel flow. No different than rubbing a balloon on a carpet or hair, static builds up.

CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Fire Hazard from Filling Portable Gas Cans in Pickup Trucks and Cars (98-111)

Here are a couple of video's.
Gas Pump Explosion Caused by Static Electricity - YouTube

Gas Station Static Electricity Fire - YouTube

 

[JasG]

Spills and fumes in a vehicle are never good, obviously. That said, whatever station that is allowing people to fuel cans IN a vehicle needs to be reported to your State authorities - starting with the local Fire Captain.

The problem is static, as an ignition source. The island pumps are grounded. Vehicles, by nature of being on rubber tires, are not grounded. The biggest reason laws require cans to be filled out of the vehicle is that as you bring the nozzle close to the can in the vehicle, static electricity (built up on the vehicle) can arc. With the right vapour concentration, the can ignites.

Note that this static ignition problem persists with the cans sitting on the tailgate of a truck - they need to be out of the vehicle entirely.

That gas station needs to have a "Come to Jesus" conversation with the Fire Marshall, before that type of event actually happens.

Good luck with your FIL, those situations are never easy to manage.

Rgds, D.

I didn't know any such law existed. If I'm at a filling station I do say something to people about the static. It's hard to do when I see it and I'm driving by. Most stations around here are self serve with no one watching the pumps.

Vehicles are grounded themselves I believe, the problem is when they have a bed liner, wood or carpet and the static can't get to the frame from what I have read.

This is in the link I posted above.

In recent incidents reported to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), fires spontaneously ignited when workers or others attempted to fill portable gasoline containers (gas cans) in the backs of pickup trucks equipped with plastic bed liners or in cars with carpeted surfaces. Serious skin burns and other injuries resulted. Similar incidents in the last few years have resulted in warning bulletins from several private and government organizations.

These fires result from the buildup of static electricity. The insulating effect of the bed liner or carpet prevents the static charge generated by gasoline flowing into the container or other sources from grounding. The discharge of this buildup to the grounded gasoline dispenser nozzle may cause a spark and ignite the gasoline. Both ungrounded metal (most hazardous) and plastic gas containers have been involved in these incidents.