Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Normand Hybrid and R4 Traction

[MBJones]

I wanted to post this somewhere other than my intro so more folks could find it when searching.

I've searched forums and dealerships for answers to various technical questions prior to purchasing or making mods. There is a lot of misinformation or lack of accurate information on certain topics, so I've joined in order to share my experiences. I'm a degreed mechanical engineer with 35 years experience in new product design and manufacture. Recently I purchased a green tractor and a Normand Hybrid blower and experienced traction issues with R4s. So here is a summary of my experiences.

I grooved my tires with a pattern that would keep the snow captured within the rubber. If the snow is allowed to dynamically extrude out of the grooves, its adhesion to the snow on the ground is compromised since it is always on the move, breaking the mechanical snow bond. Car tires are different since water and snow need to be allowed to leave the tread in order to avoid hydroplaning. Tractors don't have the same requirement. My grooving was initially conservative and I saw much improvement in traction. As I added more grooves I noticed a proportional improvement of traction in snow. Once happy with the snow traction, I found the ice traction lacking. I added sipes to the front and rear tires which helped dramatically on the ice.

My Normand Hybrid 74" blower weighs almost 1100# and should ideally be dragged with full weight of the blower on the surface. My initial traction with R4s was so poor in 4WD, I had to lift the blower a bit off the ground to alleviate the drag resistance and transfer that weight to the rear tires. Once grooved, I no longer had traction issues with the full weight on the blower, even in 2WD. My grooves were made with an Ideal 250watt tool with #4 blade(about 1/4" wide). The grooves were made 1/4" deep. For the sipes, I added a few washer spacers in order to spread the distance between slits to 1/2" and 1/8" deep. Placement of the sipes and grooves was such that I am confident that during summer FEL work, there will be no chunking or compromise of structural integrity. More sipes are better for ice traction, but too many also weakens the tire tread. Even with the relatively hard rubber of R4s, siping DOES make a demonstrable difference.

I cut a template from plastic. Tapping a chalk filled a muslin bag over it gave me a good pattern transfer. I did this for the grooves and the sipes separately. Definitely not the fastest pattern to groove, but I'm happy with the performance results. As a side note, all testing thus far has been with unloaded tires. I just picked up 60 gallons of Rim Guard today and will be filling my rear tires Christmas Eve.

So, otherwise useless R4 tires can be used successfully in snow and ice if they are grooved and siped. Both help significantly. Adding the Rim Guard should help even more. I can't think of anything else that is practical to do to improve traction and shouldn't need to. Hope this helps someone out there.

Merry Christmas!

 

[ruffdog]

Video of the Normand hybrid:

 

[metalbender]

Blower looks too big for the tractor. More weight is needed. How is the tire pressure? With the looks of the drive, chains or screw in studs probably aren't options. Don't know if radial tires are available for that model. Where i worked last, the grounds people used radials on their loaders and graders. Huge difference in traction on paved surfaces.

 

[fishhead]

the blower is ok for the pto hp of the tractor. It is toward the limits as far as weight that far back. You may find you need more weight on the front for turning when the blower is raised. I have a pronovost p74 inv on a jd 3720 which weighs a bit less and i can tell when the blower is raised. I leave my loader on and fill the bucket with snow and that helps a good bit. Be careful on bumpy surfaces as contractors with bigger machines have broken their hitches with reap pulls. Currently the favorite preventative seems to be the addition of a nitrogen accumulator.

WRT traction I take it that your drive is flat? And ice is not a problem.
There is no way you could get away with siping here. Chains on all 4. We get ice you can't stand on and the roads/ drives are steep.

Chains or studs won't do a lot to pavement when its cold, after all you are dragging the scraper edge across it. Better than going off a drive on a hill.

Blower looks too big for the tractor. More weight is needed. How is the tire pressure? With the looks of the drive, chains or screw in studs probably aren't options. Don't know if radial tires are available for that model. Where i worked last, the grounds people used radials on their loaders and graders. Huge difference in traction on paved surfaces.

 

[razor]

As stated above, that blower is too heavy for your tractor. You dont have a cab so I assume you are likely only using it on your own driveway. If this is the case you may get away with this set up. If you are bouncing down the road from driveway to driveway your 3ph linkage won't last long.

I have seen similar sipping of R4s on other websites with similar results like you are reporting. I use R4s and don't have any major traction problems other than in wet snow with ice under it's hard to turn(tractor wants to keep going straight). The terrain around here is fairly flat so that maybe why I'm happy with R4's. I tried Nokians and they were good in the snow but terrible for summer loader work so stuck with R4s. Right now I'm experimenting with a r4 on the rear and skid steer snow tire on the front. So far it seems a bit better but not spectacular.

 

[MBJones]

Actually the 74" blower was designed for the Deere 3000 series(according to Normand's engineering staff). The wide angle and position of the camera makes the tractor look small and the blower large. I have no problem lifting or steering since I have 880# of front ballast. I clear the 400 yard long private drive for 5 neighbors plus their driveways. All are asphalt and chains are not an option. Although I have made a set for the front tires just in case. I have a 7 degree hill that is easily climbed with snow. Will have to see how it fares with wet ice this Spring thaw.

Blower looks too big for the tractor. More weight is needed. How is the tire pressure? With the looks of the drive, chains or screw in studs probably aren't options. Don't know if radial tires are available for that model. Where i worked last, the grounds people used radials on their loaders and graders. Huge difference in traction on paved surfaces.

 

[razor]

Looking at the pic of your set up i have a couple of small suggestions. Get rid of that quick hitch. It might not seem like a big deal but it adds a couple inches of more distance between the tractor and the blower. It makes a difference. When using an inverted blower once in a while chucks of ice have hit my rear window real hard that I'm surprised it did not break. If it was to hit the operator with no cab it could easily take out a few teeth. I would look into making a plexiglass shield or at least wear a full face helmet while snowblowing.

 

[fishhead]

I would listen to Razor, he probably knows more about rear pulls and their use in commercial snow clearing than any of the rest of us ever will.

what he is referring to and i tried to also state was that the blower , though it can be raised and used by a 3000 series tractor is is stressing the hitch and has been proven to occasionally cause failures of the 3ph. I f you look on plowsite there is a thread called switching to a blowing service that is probably the most comprehensive source of real world experience. In that thread you would see that contractors are fitting nitrogen accumulators on 3000, 4000, 5000 and 6000 series jd's and all sizes of kubotas as well. It is the combination of weight, rear bias and high speed travel on bumpy or rough surfaces that has been using some failures. I know in my case that i try to be careful over bumps and i can tell that the weight of my blower(almost 200 lbs less) is a serious load on the hitch. Its not that you can't or shouldn't use the blower just that care is needed.
Cold snow is quite easy to have good traction on, things get tricky with a little bit of snow over ice at freezing or above . Be careful 7 degrees is a bit over 12% and you can get moving surprisingly quickly on a slope like that.

Actually the 74" blower was designed for the Deere 3000 series(according to Normand's engineering staff). The wide angle and position of the camera makes the tractor look small and the blower large. I have no problem lifting or steering since I have 880# of front ballast. I clear the 400 yard long private drive for 5 neighbors plus their driveways. All are asphalt and chains are not an option. Although I have made a set for the front tires just in case. I have a 7 degree hill that is easily climbed with snow. Will have to see how it fares with wet ice this Spring thaw.

 

[ruffdog]

Here is a nice Deere helmet.

John Deere Snowmobile Helmet Adult Size Large RARE | #1923536

 

[fishhead]

I have always used my blower without a quick hitch, its back far enough without it.
If you do eliminate the quick hitch remember to check the pto shaft length

Looking at the pic of your set up i have a couple of small suggestions. Get rid of that quick hitch. It might not seem like a big deal but it adds a couple inches of more distance between the tractor and the blower. It makes a difference. When using an inverted blower once in a while chucks of ice have hit my rear window real hard that I'm surprised it did not break. If it was to hit the operator with no cab it could easily take out a few teeth. I would look into making a plexiglass shield or at least wear a full face helmet while snowblowing.