NX6010 suction side hydro leak

[Overtaxed]

Argh. I cannot catch a break on hydraulics. As the weather has gotten colder, I'm starting to hear more noise in the hydro system, especially when the fluid is cold. Started it today and the FEL was moving like it had a case of palsy for the first 20 mins or so. Check the hydro oil, looks OK, a little high but I think I see bubbles (looking into the fill plug from the back) and I hear a noise like air. It eventually works itself out as the machine heats up and works fine, but... I think I have a leak in the suction side of the hydro system, the pump just did not sound right (like it wasn't even/pulling air) today, and I don't think I should have those little bubbles in the system.

Crawled under the tractor, nothing evident, there's only a few fittings between the hydro pump and the tank, and all of them looked OK. Of course, there's the filter, I spun it some of the way off (until oil dribbled through) and then put it back on (probably tighter than it should be). No change.

Any ideas where to look/secrets to finding suction side leaks that others might care to pass along?

 

[YLee Kioti]

Noticed the Hydraulic filter is on the suction side of the hyd. pump.
Made me scratch my head as I saw a rubber hose with hose clamps.
Did not mention or I missed it but have you looked at that area?

Maybe try a sealant around the perimeter of the hose that slips over the suction pipe see what happens.
That rubber hose may have a hairline crack and will not leak. Once cranked up it's pulling fluid through.
So maybe a saran wrap piece wrapped up all over the entire hose to see how it sounds when cranked also.
Regards...

 

[Overtaxed]

Noticed the Hydraulic filter is on the suction side of the hyd. pump.
Made me scratch my head as I saw a rubber hose with hose clamps.
Did not mention or I missed it but have you looked at that area?

Maybe try a sealant around the perimeter of the hose that slips over the suction pipe see what happens.
That rubber hose may have a hairline crack and will not leak. Once cranked up it's pulling fluid through.
So maybe a saran wrap piece wrapped up all over the entire hose to see how it sounds when cranked also.
Regards...

I found that too, it looks like the obvious place for this problem to arise. I tried cranking it down more, no result. Then I backed it off and it did leak (with the engine off). But yeah, not exactly the best way to put that together, especially since it's the underside of the tractor, just waiting for a branch to come blow a hole in it. I'll try the saran wrap tomorrow, I was thinking about just using RTV or silicone to really get a good joint there.

Sucks because I can't find a mechanic willing to come to me so I'm looking at shipping/delivery on the tractor to get it somewhere for diagnosis and resolution. Honestly though, with my "hydro luck", I'm almost at the point of "you know what, just fix it!". The wonder of warranty!

 

[xcgreene]

Would be interesting to know what type of hyd/trans fluid you've got in there. If its still the stuff from the dealer, it is possible they are using an incorrect fluid, which has happened on a number of occasions. The suction filter may also be played out. Just some thoughts.

 

[YLee Kioti]

One thing for sure Kioti seems to believe a lot in the, put it together and dip it all in paint!....

Makes visual troubleshooting very difficult.

Good luck hope it helps narrow it down...

 

[Overtaxed]

One thing for sure Kioti seems to believe a lot in the, put it together and dip it all in paint!...

Yeah, tell me about it. I was looking at that connection and I couldn't even see the the hose clamp because it was totally covered in paint! And yes, it does make it difficult to see or work on things, as long as the paint stays, of course!

Gonna try the saran wrap trick tomorrow, we'll see if that tells me anything.

Also, I'm running Mobifluid 424 in the tractor. That made a big difference coming from Kioti fluid, much smoother. Did a full hydro fluid change and all the filter about 50 hours ago.

 

[YLee Kioti]

I'm with you on the so called OEM fluid.
Let us know how you like the Mobil 424 fluid after you've had a few hours of run time.

Went to NAPA and ordered 10 gallons of full synthetic. (Coastal) Did not retail in smaller containers so went to local bota dealer and got a gallon in case it needed topping off. But 10 gallons was dead center of indicator.
Now the machine starts up and there is no hyd surge and loud whining noise.
The range shift selector is a whole lot smoother, etc. no down side for sure.
Slowly learning about dealers. I do not see Kioti dealers using a vendor specific Hyd fluid but rather whatever a good salesman talked them into using.

Not knowing what is the OEM fill I sure did not want anymore of that stuff. Loud whining, had to always jiggle lever and a pedal to engage a range etc. it was very irritating.
Well drifting off topic maybe. Keep us updated.

Regards....



Is this the fluid your dealer retails?

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Argh. I cannot catch a break on hydraulics. As the weather has gotten colder, I'm starting to hear more noise in the hydro system, especially when the fluid is cold. Started it today and the FEL was moving like it had a case of palsy for the first 20 mins or so. Check the hydro oil, looks OK, a little high but I think I see bubbles (looking into the fill plug from the back) and I hear a noise like air. It eventually works itself out as the machine heats up and works fine, but... I think I have a leak in the suction side of the hydro system, the pump just did not sound right (like it wasn't even/pulling air) today, and I don't think I should have those little bubbles in the system.

Crawled under the tractor, nothing evident, there's only a few fittings between the hydro pump and the tank, and all of them looked OK. Of course, there's the filter, I spun it some of the way off (until oil dribbled through) and then put it back on (probably tighter than it should be). No change.

Any ideas where to look/secrets to finding suction side leaks that others might care to pass along?

I don't think you have a problem. I think you're hearing cavitation on the pump due to cold hydro oil. Watch my video on cold start-up. BTW, Mobilfluid 424 is the same spec as J20C-D. I run Napa's universal hydro-trans oil in my machine and it works just fine.

https://sciencing.com/difference-between-j20c-j20d-fluid-12011149.html

 

[YLee Kioti]

@Eric
Thanks for the video and the info on cold weather starts.
Although we never see that range in south Texas it seems to be good practice to allow machine parts and fluids to warm up and allow thermal expansion before trying to hammer the machine with work.

Regards...

 

[Overtaxed]

Well, had the dealer out, showed him the problem and his exact words, "that's not right". So, hopefully there's something that is really wrong that they can fix. I've had a string of "hydro issues" that I suspect all come back to this. I had issues with my tractor "making oil" since new (pull the stick cold, it's in range, pull the stick hot, it comes out the hole it's so overful). Also, if I open the fill hole, I can actually see bubbles (tiny, bubbles) in there and hear something that sounds off. So; we'll see, but the dealer took the tractor tonight and said his best guess is something in the hydro pump that's not sealed.

Thanks for the video Eric, and yes, that's kind of what mine sounds like. Mine is worse, but it's the same basic noise. Here's the thing though, my JD (also a hydro) doesn't do this at all. I go out start it, and all the hydro is smooth as silk from 30 seconds in. So, if this is "normal" then it's not a feather in Kioti's cap, that's for sure. I'm petty sure it's not normal though, I should have recorded video for you guys, but, when I get it back, I'll get some video of it "fixed" for comparison.

 

[YLee Kioti]

Thanks for the update. Glad the dealer actually came out and listened to it.

Suspect you're on target with something within the hydro pump itself just not right. Maybe a machining tolerances, seals, combo thereof.
Anyway, its all in progress now.
So looking forward to the final solution.
Regards

 

[xcgreene]

Well, had the dealer out, showed him the problem and his exact words, "that's not right". So, hopefully there's something that is really wrong that they can fix. I've had a string of "hydro issues" that I suspect all come back to this. I had issues with my tractor "making oil" since new (pull the stick cold, it's in range, pull the stick hot, it comes out the hole it's so overful). Also, if I open the fill hole, I can actually see bubbles (tiny, bubbles) in there and hear something that sounds off. So; we'll see, but the dealer took the tractor tonight and said his best guess is something in the hydro pump that's not sealed.

Thanks for the video Eric, and yes, that's kind of what mine sounds like. Mine is worse, but it's the same basic noise. Here's the thing though, my JD (also a hydro) doesn't do this at all. I go out start it, and all the hydro is smooth as silk from 30 seconds in. So, if this is "normal" then it's not a feather in Kioti's cap, that's for sure. I'm petty sure it's not normal though, I should have recorded video for you guys, but, when I get it back, I'll get some video of it "fixed" for comparison.

Not knowing what all the other issues you have been having with your hydraulic system, and just reading this thread, I've been looking at the flow diagram of a dk45se, unsure of how similar it is to the NX other than size. High on my list of suspects would be a component of the Joystick valve or 3pt lift cylinder, both of which are fed from the 1st hydraulic pump. The 2nd hydraulic pump feeds the modulator valve, which services the pto clutch, 4wd shifting, steering, and HST functions.

I suppose its in the dealers hands now, but if the problem persists after return from the hospital, put your hand on both hydraulic pumps, see if one is unusually hotter than the other after having operated the problem. Put your hand on the joystick valve, feel for chatter/excessive heat there. Same for the modulator valve. If you can get close enough to the problem, its exact location may become apparent, and could be as simple as changing out a relief valve. Which would be.... you know.........a relief.



I'll see myself out.

Let us know what they come up with, I hope it works out alright for you.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Well, had the dealer out, showed him the problem and his exact words, "that's not right". So, hopefully there's something that is really wrong that they can fix. I've had a string of "hydro issues" that I suspect all come back to this. I had issues with my tractor "making oil" since new (pull the stick cold, it's in range, pull the stick hot, it comes out the hole it's so overful). Also, if I open the fill hole, I can actually see bubbles (tiny, bubbles) in there and hear something that sounds off. So; we'll see, but the dealer took the tractor tonight and said his best guess is something in the hydro pump that's not sealed.

Thanks for the video Eric, and yes, that's kind of what mine sounds like. Mine is worse, but it's the same basic noise. Here's the thing though, my JD (also a hydro) doesn't do this at all. I go out start it, and all the hydro is smooth as silk from 30 seconds in. So, if this is "normal" then it's not a feather in Kioti's cap, that's for sure. I'm petty sure it's not normal though, I should have recorded video for you guys, but, when I get it back, I'll get some video of it "fixed" for comparison.

Your oil level will rise as it warmed up to the point the oil comes out the dip stick and has some foaming. Normal.

Also industry normal accross a wide range of vehicles.

 

[Overtaxed]

Tractor is back. Dealer asked me if I wanted it back or wanted him to hold onto it until he could speak with Kioti. They are pretty sure the issue is the pump, they replaced everything on the suction side and put a clear tube in where the rubber connector is between the hydro filter and the sump (suction side) so they can see the bubbles. Tractor is also out of spec for time to raise the loader, like way out of spec (almost double the time), so all indications are the pump at this point. Dealer is going to get with Kioti and get them to authorize the pump replacement but won't be able to do that for a week, so brought the tractor back to me so I had it. I've been really impressed with this dealer, they are new to me and I'm really liking dealing with them. Kind of upset that it's such a major part going out, but, to be honest, I'm near sure that this was a factory defect in the pump. It's never been "right", I just didn't realize it because I had no comparison point (I'd only used gear tractors before). When I got a little JD a few months ago (also a hydro) it was clear as day to me that "somethings not right" with the Kioti. The JD is smooth as silk, doesn't "make oil", doesn't whine, doesn't stutter. And that's exactly what the dealer said when he drove it around my property, he made it about 50 feet and stopped. "I know what your feeling, it's not right". So it's not Kioti vs JD, it's just my inexperience with hydro drive tractors.

Either way, I'll keep everyone updated as to the final resolution, but it'll be a few weeks before anything happens. At least I have the tractor back and can get some work done again! Seems the minute it's gone, about 100 things pop up that need doing. I asked him "am I gonna hurt anything running it like this" and he kind of laughed. Yeah, might hurt the pump, but we need to change the pump, so... Have at it.

 

[Overtaxed]

Man, I will have to get some video of this an upload it to you Youtube for you guys to look at. With the clear tube in the suction line you can see it clearly, first bubbles and then, when it "smooths out" it's just foam, looks like you put soap into the hydro line. White foamy soap. Crazy how much air is in there. Of course, because it's been cold, it's working awful, gotta let it warm up for 30 minutes before it'll feel like moving. Same situation as before, once warm (and the hydro fluid is all foam) it works pretty well.

Explains how I've been "making hydro oil" in this tractor since I got it though. I'm pretty sure this has been a day 1 problem that's just gotten worse. Dealer has to get Kioti to authorize a new pump which he'll order up for me, hopefully that's the end of the problem. Good news is, it's behaving so badly now, it's going to be night/day when this fixed. There's no "I think I got it". No, especially with the clear line in there on the suction line, it's easy to see there's a problem (and hopefully be equally easy to see when it's resolved).

 

[YLee Kioti]

Clear line awesome.....
side bar question.....is the clear line stout enough for full time use?
Sure sounds like an excellent 'mod' that would be a handy way of keeping an eye on the hyd. system.
IF the hose is stout enough that is...heh....

 

[xcgreene]

Clear line awesome.....
side bar question.....is the clear line stout enough for full time use?
Sure sounds like an excellent 'mod' that would be a handy way of keeping an eye on the hyd. system.
IF the hose is stout enough that is...heh....

Many types of tubing you'll see around. Its hard to say what they used at the dealer, but the most common, readily available options are as follows:

* Tygon PVC is typically used for drainage viewing but only good for 50psi and 160F or so.

* UV resistant Clear PVC is good for 220F but only 50psi or so.

* PVC with polyester braiding is good to 350psi, but only up to 150F, and not perfect for viewing.


You can go a bit out of your way and find some much better, longer lasting options.

* FEP clear tubing for chemicals is good for 400F and around 300psi and is UV resistant, and has around a 2" bend radius for 1/2 tube, a bit hard but good stuff.

* Crack-Resistant Teflon PFA clear tubing for chemicals is good for 500F and around 400 psi, and has a similar bend radius as the above

* Extreme temp PTFE Teflon semi clear tubing is good for 500F and around 300psi


There are a lot of options if you take a look in McMaster Carr. Some of these options may be to hard for this application, and its difficult to say for sure until you can get your hands on some of it. I know pressure rating will not need to be very high, but you'll still want to stay clear from anything rated too low. Temperature rating is quite important, higher the rating, the longer it will last. Your oil should never see 180F or above, but the higher the rating the better.

My choice would be the FEP clear tubing for chemicals, along with all of its other great properties, its also highly UV resistant. Its the hardness that you would have to try out and see if it could make the bends and fit over fittings that you might need it too.

Ask the dealer specifically what hose they used, should let you know if you can leave it on.

 

[Overtaxed]

Here's a video (poorly shot, but you can see the problem).

I think the fitting that was put in is thread reinforced PVC. I show it in the video so please, PVC experts, can I keep that as the line or do I need to replace it with the stock rubber boot or something else? It's about 40 degrees here today, this problem is very cold dependent, the colder it is, the worse it is. So today it was pretty bad, in the summer, sometimes it would be near "perfect" and other times it would just need a minute or two to settle down. The dealer still is pretty sure it's the pump, just seems to strange that all that air is getting in on the suction side like that from a bad pump though.

Kioti Hydro Issue - YouTube

This video is bad, I just don't have time to work on it. You may have to jump about 2 mins in, the beginning 2 mins are all dark. I asked Youtube to trim it, but it may not be done for a bit, just jump ahead 2 mins if you have a black screen.

Thanks!

 

[Coyote machine]

FEL lift sucks. Same with 3PH. Noise coincides with 3PH lift stutter. Get a new pump.:thumbsup:

 

[xcgreene]

Yeah, I'm leaning pump now too. Interesting, does your power steering studder at all too? as that comes from pump #2. your loader valve and 3pt hitch come from pump #1