Off Grid Question

[Haoleguy]

Very nice read. I'm not thinking of going off grid but building a new house with geothermal heating/cooling and photovoltaic cells. The latter I have been thinking of using to add back to the grid with an energy credit. I'm just forming ideas at the moment but a question I have is am I naive with the photovoltaics and how does it typically work to return energy to the power company?

 

[stumpfield]

Very nice read. I'm not thinking of going off grid but building a new house with geothermal heating/cooling and photovoltaic cells. The latter I have been thinking of using to add back to the grid with an energy credit. I'm just forming ideas at the moment but a question I have is am I naive with the photovoltaics and how does it typically work to return energy to the power company?

Your are not going to get rich from selling electricity to the power company.. In your case, you would need a grid-tie system and make arrangement with your power company to spin the meter backward when you produce excess power. But you usually don't get pay if you produce more than you use. A grid-tie system is most cost effective when power company in your area charge tier-pricing like in California. Where you got charge a much higher rate for over usage. You want to produce enough power to get you just below the higher pricing tier. With all state & federal incentives, it's a very attractive investment.

 

[Haoleguy]

Stumpfield - Thank you for the reply. I will check with Conn Light & Power to see how they handle excess power. I don't have a sense that CLP has a tier system but it could be because of the low power consumption we have with our current house and never see a change to our bill. Thanks again.

 

[Youare]

The company I work for in southern Vermont decided to build a co-gen system for electrical and heating/cooling of the complete facility which is 30,000 sq. ft. They also wanted to use bio-diesel to fuel the engines for the generators.

The system works but the cost of operation is well over 2 times what it would cost to buy power from the grid. That is just figuring the fuel cost. When you figure the added expense of engine maintenance and rebuild cost of the generators it is much more expensive than purchasing electricity for the power company.

We are now running two diesel engines to make power which produce emissions and use fuel that is increasing our dependance on oil. I can't see how this is better for the environment. Solar panels would make more sense but the cost to produce enough electricity from solar would be even more expensive, I think.

I still think technology still has a long way to go before it will become a good economic decision to live off the grid.

Randy

 

[midlf]

The big problem of off grid vs on grid economics is economies of scale and fuel cost (if it is a fuel derived system). The bigger you make power plants the lower their cost per KWHr. Also they have very large and thus similarly economic fuel delivery systems and arrange for lower rate long term contracts.

If you have access to grid power at a reasonable connection fee it is very difficult to be more economic than the grid unless you have very favorable arrangements for equipment prices.

For example ask those who have had to use backup generation for some time what was their cost per KWHr for that power.

The best bet for the future is economic solar cell production, say as photo voltaic shingles. However the most economic use of these would still be on grid as a daytime load reduction system with the grid to provide dark time power.

 

[Highbeam]

Randy, I agree, BUT the cost to hook on to the grid must be considered. If you have a powerline at your house then you are much better of buying power and paying the 7 cents per KWhour and having a backup generator should the grid fail. That is my plan. If you live somewhere so remote that it would cost 200,000$ to run power to your home then nearly the only choice is off-grid. There will come a time when electricity fuels everything and I believe the nuclear power plants will come back to do it.

I can't make power for 7 cents per KWH. Power is quite cheap here in the NW. I read that there is a law, federal?, that requires power companies to buy back power you produce for the same price they charge you for it in the form of a credit to your power bill. The power company will not be forced to send you a check but can zero the bill. Just having the right meter to allow for this seems wise. You can run a diesel generator on lots of fuels including waste oil and biodiesel so there may be a point where these waste fuels can be used to spin your meter back to zero and do you the service of burning your waste oil. There is a web group that restores these lister generators which are mammoth single cylinder slow diesel engines that can be hooked to efficient generator heads to make power efficiently, one guy measured 1/8 gallon of diesel per delivered KWH and that was good.

 

[Youare]

Highbeam, a friend who was off grid for 8 years was because it would have cost him thousands of $$ to get power to his location. I think it was over 4 miles of power lines and poles that would have to be installed. As time went by and more people built in that area the power company extended the lines and he was able to connect for a small fee.

My wife and I considered 15 years ago building on a lot that we own but is without power. The cost of appliances that do not need electricity, low voltage ligthing, generators, and such put the price of the project out of our reach then.

Living off the grid brings a certian satisfaction of self sufficientcy but unless you have a hydro-electric operation where you can sell back power to the grid it is more costly than buying power. There was a doctor in this area who had a nice little hydro-electric plant and the power company had to buy his power, at a reduced rate however.

The company I work for uses about 7,000 gallons of bio-diesel every 35 days to generate power. The estimated cost a month to purchase the same amount of power from the grid is $7,000. We are connected to the grid in case of emergency but will not use it. So, in order to tell everyone we make our own power that comes at a pretty high cost.

Randy

 

[stumpfield]

Well, when you live off-grid, you need to learn and adapt to really living off-the-grid. If you just simply build the same on-the-grid house with all the amenities, then you have to build a mini utility company 1st and deal with all the associated startup capital and maintenance costs. It's like starting a business to serve just one customer....It takes knowledge and a lot of hard work to run a utiltiy company no matter how small it is. There's no way you can do it cost effectively and be competitive.
Today's typical homes are built with the intention to be on "life-support" at the very start. As soon as you pull the plug, it will not support itself. Not to mention living in it. It's no different than a dying person on life support in a hospital. So, living off-the-grid requires a lot planning and some life style changes. At the least, start with building a house that can support itself and require little or no energy at all. It's like we need to go to the doctor every once a while, but don't have a tube attach to our body to survive.
The most reliable form of enery that we know of today is the sun. So, solar energy is our best bet for most of us who wants to live off-the-grid. The only problem is the high cost. Perhaps this article offer some hope if price of solar panel will really drop to $1 per watt in the near future.

http://www.photon-magazine.com/news/news_2006-04_eu_aleo.htm