Oil Viscosity

MrFixit · Mar 12, 2006

I'm in South Florida and have a new KAMA 354C with 10 hours on it. Upon delivery I changed all fluids and put Rotela 5-40 in the engine. When I first start it up the Oil pressure sits about midway on the needle, .3. After about 20 minutes the needle Oil needls starts creeping down towards the RED Zone, .1. The Temp remains at about 60 all day. After a long cool down the oil gage reads back up to .3. I typically run the engine about 1000 - 1200 RPM. If I increase the engine speed to about 1500 the gage goes up a bit.

I think the Oil Pump is OK as the low reading is only after long warm up. The weather is usually 75-85 this time of year. I'm thinking I may need to go with a thicker oil or a single viscosity instead of multi 5-40.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Tim

joerocker · Mar 12, 2006

I'm no expert...

I was under the impression that multi-oil is the low number when cold and the upper when hot. So, it's like a 5WT when cold and 40WT when it's hot. 5WT for easier starting with all the viscosity of 40WT when it warms up.

Could something be happening to your oil pump when it gets hot?

Harrygoodwrench · Mar 12, 2006

I would say I believe you should be running a straight 30 weight motor oil.
Why did you choose a multi viscosity 5W40 ???
Maybe a Kama owner can chime in.

JINMA224XR · Mar 12, 2006

I'm thinking I may need to go with a thicker oil or a single viscosity instead of multi 5-40.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


Hey Tim,

5W40 in the Deep South!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wake up Tim, I think that you have been Deceived AGain.

Personally, I wouldn't use anything thinner than 15W40 down here, and sometimes, I wonder if that is too thin.

Go easy with the Hammer.

Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

mark1 · Mar 12, 2006

Hi:
One of my 284s showed low oil pressure similar to what you are seeing.it would drop when warmed up to just above the red line.and the gage seemed to work slow. I put in a 10 dollar mechanical oil pressure gage.(with US psi markings) I have good pressure since. I also use Rotella

bluechip · Mar 12, 2006

Hi Tim,
We use and recommend 15W-40 diesel rated oil. I have not seen a 5w40 oil with CE or CF (or g or whatever they are up to now). Do not use oils that do not have a C (compression ignition) rating. There is a special additive package in diesel oil to deal with the soot and severity of the shock of the high compression a diesel endours. I do use 5W30 as perscribed by auto manual for cars, I think this is primarily for fuel economy and quick flow of oil. I have also seen synthetic oils with a range you mention. I would not use synthetics untill I had a few hundred hours on the clock (fully broken in) and once I switched, I would not switch back.

Not to make this a dreaded oil thread, but many Jinma owners and importers/distributors recommend 30 wt oil because that is what is in the chinese manual. The chinese do not use multi-grade oils (or antifreeze much for that matter) so if you want to follow the manual, be sure to drain your water each evening and only use good water from a good pond or stream /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Oil pressure has to do with the viscosity. the point where the red and green meet on your guage is the speck for warm engine at idle so it is normal to drop to this point when idling warm engine. It should jump up as rpms increase. It will be higher when cold do to the oil being thicker. IF the oil is low (check with mechanical gage to be sure) all the time, than some adjustment of the pressure regulator on the oil filter housing could be in order. however, if the gage reads good cold, than the regulator is holding pressure. I would not use 5w oil, except maybe in canada or alaska, or the most northern states and I would watch my Oil Press. gage closely. without an adequate oil film, you could hammer a bearing pretty easy.

greg_g · Mar 12, 2006

( Rotela 5-40 )
Is that a typographical error, or are you using synthetic oil in a new engine?

And 1200-1500 rpm is well below the engine's torque curve, barely above idle actually. These diesel tractor engines are working engines - meant to be run at or near full throttle. And certainly, working them at anything less than 1800 rpm or so is self-destructive.

//greg//

MrFixit · Mar 13, 2006

I have a lot to learn about Diesels and Tractors. That's why I ask so many questions. I thought a Diesel was a low end pulling engine and my KAMA 354 has tons of low end grunt. at 1200 RPM the engine never sags or drops RPM no mattter how big a log I'm dragging or how much stuff the Grapple is lifting. I'll loose traction long before the engine even shows any signs of a load on it. But I use only the LOW gears for pulling. If I take off in High gears even without dragging a log the engine sags a bit until up to speed.

As far as synthetics on a new motor I'll have to remember that one as that's all I've ever used in my Dirt bikes, Harley, Pickup Truck and cars. Since I've been using synthetics I haven't been able to wear out a motor and I drive the toys very hard.

My local Walmart has about 5 times the Oil selection than any Auto Parts store around. The only Rotela Diesel Oil (Rotela was recommended by someone on this site) they had was 5-40 Multi Vis. I thought that was going to be a bit thin but didn't think I could find a better selection of oil at the Auto parts store so I bought it. Looks like I'll have to go with Dino oil anyway for a while.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Tim

greg_g · Mar 13, 2006

You're not doing your tractor any favors by making it work down in those rpm ranges. I already mentioned torque. Your 485T engine doesn't reach peak (working) torque till ~1700 rpm. From that point the engine continues to develop horsepower till it peaks ~2500 rpm. I'd consider THAT to be your working range; 1700 to 2500 rpm. If your governor permits more rpms than that, consider it a bonus. In addition, 1200 rpm may not produce sufficient oil and/or hydraulic pressure and/or coolant flow with which to perform any meaningful work.

You only got part of the engine oil recommendation; Rotella T has been mentioned many times - BUT almost always the (nonsynthetic) 15W40 weight. That's why I asked if perhaps you made a typographical error. But brand name is secondary to weight. Buy anybody's 15W40, as long as it's got a SAE rating of CF or better. There's a diesel rated 30W also, but it's mainly for warm climates and/or three season tractors. I think South Florida qualifies.

There are a few guys who think synthetics can do no harm to a (new) Chinese tractor, but their numbers are small. I personally won't even consider synthetic anything until the machine is fully broken in; 300 hours minimum.

Side note; you'll see a lot of recommendations for AW32 hydraulic fluid as well. But in your location, AW46 should work just fine - and might be easier to find. Same with gear oil; majority recommendation is for 80W90, but 85W140 should be ok in your location (plus make for a quieter transmission).

//greg//

Soundguy · Mar 13, 2006

I agree with the others.. down here in florida, my dealers i buy parts from all reccomend 15-40 diesel rated oil. That's what I put in and run in my ford 5000 and Nh 7610s... never get low oil pressure even after hour os pto speed on 10' mower.. etc..

Soundguy

George_Martin · Mar 13, 2006

My tractor did the same thing with the oil pressure guage, but at the same time had wrong readings from the tach and temp guages. The only thing I found wrong was a loose ground wire at the fuse block and everything was back to perfect. I know you might think that the guages ground at the sending unit but tightening that ground was all that I did.

SPIKER · Mar 14, 2006

I agree with Chip 100% on this, even syntetic oil companies have stated that to use them AFTER initinal break in of the engine. all engine manufactures state similar to this in the manuals. break in is at least 300 hrs on AHNY diesel in my un profesional opinion. also agree that 5~40 is too low, 15~440 at min in you're area. which is FLOWS LIKE 5 at cold temp but protects LIKE 40 at temp. which is hnow multi-visc oiuls are about,. COLD flowing ability... down there I would go with straight oils and or a good standard oil made for the diesel motor. lots of hype about oils but plane ole stuff has worked for years and the new additives packages are more than adiquite for a tractor engine durring break in.. if you WANT the rotella after that then by all means go for it.

mark M /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MrFixit · Mar 15, 2006

Well, now that I got 10 hours on the tractor I was planning on doing some more lube changes anyway. I should be able to find lots of choices for single viscosity diesel oil made by Dino. I think Chip mentioned once I go to Synthetic I should stick with it. Hopefully I haven't been using the synthetic long enough for my tractor to be adicted to the stuff!

As Greg mentioned I kick up the RPMs a bit.

Tim

bluechip · Mar 15, 2006

Another good reason not to use synthetic is the cost. you need to change oil between 30 and 50 hours,no matter what you are using, to get rid of fines that are normal to the break in of these engines. I personally have delt with customers (not my tractors, not that it matters) Sold one a new engine (his lockedup running pump unattended 150 hours on china oil) the other got a rebuild, failed at about 80 hours, plugged up pick up screen....original oil. Cannot emphisize enough to change oil between 30 (if you do it before you have to do it again at this interval) and not more than 50 hours!

Tim, I don't think the short time you ran thesynthetic did harm, just dosen't count much toward your break in hours.

When working these tractors (pulling, pushing or PTO work) it is advised to keep near the PTO speed (green mark on tach) this is where you are making best usable HP. In fact the Chinese often do not use tachs (early JInmas and TS series KAMAs came with no tach) the manual said to just "open the throttle" and begin work. Remember these engines have a governor set to control working speed of the engine. That said during break in, it is good to run 20 minutes at one speed, then 20 minutes at full throttle, then another speed, drive the tractor a lot in all gears/ranges and both forward and back without a load to break it in before you start working it heavy.

3RRL · Mar 16, 2006

I have a couple of questions arising from statements made in this thread that have caused concern with the manner I have been operating my tractor.

First question:
What exactly is self destructive about working them at anything less than 1800 rpm? Please explain.

Greg wrote ( And certainly, working them at anything less than 1800 rpm or so is self-destructive.)
Aside from the obvious...
I realize optimum hp and torque are made at certain rpm and some hydraulic functions require higher rpms, but they also function at lower rpms. I also realize the greater the obstacle of resistance, the greater the work force required to overcome it, etc...
Chip wrote ( When working these tractors (pulling, pushing or PTO work) it is advised to keep near the PTO speed (green mark on tach) this is where you are making best usable HP.)

I take this to mean advice...if you want the best usable hp when working these tractors, keep the rpms in the range where it makes the best usable hp. It does not mean it is "self destructive" to do otherwise. It just means (to me) you won't get the best usable hp unless you're at the rpm that makes it.
That is exactly what I do when I need it,....but not when I don't. When I don't need the best hp, I use "less usable hp" to accomplish a task. I frequently operate my km554 between 1200 and 1500 rpm, seeing no need for more power for those chores that are done easily at those rpm. Does that make sense? Or am I way off base here? Does this mean I am "self-destructing" my tractor?

Second question:
A couple of statements have led me to believe that using synthetic oil during the break in period "may" harm the engine? At least that is what I'm getting from it.
Chip wrote ( Tim, I don't think the short time you ran thesynthetic did harm, just dosen't count much toward your break in hours.)
Greg wrote ( I personally won't even consider synthetic anything until the machine is fully broken in; 300 hours minimum.)

Does synthetic not let the engine "break in"? Does it actually do harm to the engine or is it just "not as good" as using non synthetic or is it "OK to use"...just not preferred? What is the basis behind that? I changed to synthetic after 60, maybe 80 hours (my hour gage was not working for a while) and I want to know if I am screwing up my engine having done this?

I would appreciate some clarification, please.
Thanks,

bluechip · Mar 17, 2006

Hi Rob,
The comments about rpm are to assure that the engine is not "lugged" which can be harmful, especially for a new engine. There is also some consideration given to the fact that the eninge is designed to run within its power band and that the oil pressure is higher andmore flow at higher rpm. Diesels by nature have a narrow usable rpm range. Basically just dont "chug chug" as that can be somewhat stressful for the engine. Bearing material is soft and hammering on it will cause excessive wear and premature failure. On the other hand 1500 rpm isn't too bad on your engine. and is fine for just driving the tractor but if you are working it, you should run it a little higher. The main thing is to overcome the idea that running slower is easier on the engine for break in, that only counts for the first couple hours and primarily for ring seating.

Which brings us to synthetic oil. the lubrication properties of synthetics are so good it prevents the "break in" or seating of the moving parts. These engines are made with 1950s manufacturing techniques and tolerances, the final fitting occurs as you run your tractor the first couple hundred hours, the parts literally wear it to each other. if the oil is too good, it prevents this. This is also why it is absolutely mandatory to change the engine oil between 30 and not more than 50 hours, even if it was changed during setup of the tractor.

JohnS · Mar 17, 2006

I agree with Chip, as long as you are not lugging the engine, you shouldn't be causing damage. Lugging can occur at any rpm, including the optimum powerband. Lugging is basicly trying to get more work out of an engine, than it is capable of producing at a given rpm. In reality, it is probably in the range of 90% or higher, of what the engine is capable. When it is 100%, motor will stop. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif As far as oil pressure, engine should be designed to deliver enough pressure and flow for all rpms that the engine is capable of, and the work it is capable of, at those rpms. If you always run the engine in the green optimal zone, you have less chance of lugging the engine.

greg_g · Mar 17, 2006

The operative word in my response was WORKING. You can run the engine at any RPM that's confortable during transport (driving around). But if you are using ground engaging or PTO driven equipment (actually working), you're prematurely aging your tractor's driveline by operating at less than recommended working RPM. Consult pg2 of your FeiDong engine manual. Max torque for your 495T isn't developed till 1750RPM, but engine output continues to build to a max of 44.1KW@2500 RPM. That represents your "working range". Within that range is the green mark on your tach. That's the engine RPM that produces the required revolutions of your PTO spline.

Just like cars/trucks of years past, these Chinese tractors MUST be given a break-in period (they call it "running-in"). Remember also, that synthetics were not widely available during the years when we had to break in cars and trucks. Break-in (or running-in) is the period required for new gears/bearings/seals/rings/valves/springs/et cetera to achieve their mechanical "maturity"; whether it be meshing/seating/rotating/whatever. The only way to do this is controlled stress, hence the "running-in" instruction in your tractor manual. In many cases, synthetic oils are simply too "slippery" to permit this process to occur. If/when using synthetics from Day One, you'll in effect be operating a tractor that's never been properly "broken in".

//greg//

3RRL · Mar 17, 2006

Thanks guys, you must have thought I was an idiot to ask but I've never owned a diesel before.

Well, I keep learning and that makes me feel better about the diesel engine operation. I've always "stepped on it" only when I needed more power, like my gas engines. I don't "lug" the engine ..chug chug... while working it or cruising it...so that's good. Most interesting to hear that explanation from Chip. That's eased my mind worrying about running it at higher rpm. As I understand it, there is no benefit to running the diesel at lower rpms. Unlike a gasoline engine, operating a diesel engine differs by running it at a slower rpm is not as good as running it at higher rpms (within the proper power band)...in other words, taking it easy on the diesel engine is not necessary or may even be worse for it.....Is that correct?.

Ok, so what about the synthetic I put in? Greg sums up the "break in process" nicely here ( Break-in (or running-in) is the period required for new gears/bearings/seals/rings/valves/springs/et cetera to achieve their mechanical "maturity"; whether it be meshing/seating/rotating/whatever. The only way to do this is controlled stress, hence the "running-in" instruction in your tractor manual.) Having owned many/multi new vehilce/engines (but not diesel) I am familiar about the "break in" process but was under the impression that it would occur as stated whether using dino or synthetic oil?

Again learned something about sythetic...
( In many cases, synthetic oils are simply too "slippery" to permit this process to occur. If/when using synthetics from Day One, you'll in effect be operating a tractor that's never been properly "broken in".) But here's the question...So as I understand this, synthetic is "too slippery" to allow this to happen? It will never be "properly broken in"? Or will the use of synthetic eventually do this anyway (maybe takes longer), since you added "in many cases" at the beginning?

I just want to be clear on this.

So what should I do? Should I change the oil and run it on dino until 300 hours? In my case I had somewhere between 60 and 80 hours when I changed to synthetic. At that time, the oil and filter that came out were pretty black. Maybe enough "break in" time...maybe not...probably not, huh? Did the original oil (put in by my dealer) do its job enough or do you think I should go back to dino until the 300hr mark? Even at that, how can I be sure when the engine is "properly broken in? Or is it Ok to leave the synthetic in?
What do you think?

greg_g · Mar 17, 2006

Black engine oil is normal for diesels. It's from microscopic soot particles - byproducts of compression ignition that are too small for the oil filter - that are being held in suspension by the oil. Synthetics seem to get blacker faster than conventional oils, probably because of a more aggressive detergent additive.

You can be the first if you want - to try breaking in a Chinese tractor on synthetics - but I personally don't have much faith in the concept. If it were my machine, I'd drain out all the synthetics and replace them with conventional oils. I'd consider the break-in period as being reset to zero hours. Then I'd re-evaluate the need for synthetics another 300 hours down the road.

//greg//