Ok whats wrong with this pic

[milkman636]

The white film on the bolts and springs says they have been in water not condensation. Condensation causes rust, but the white film(scaling) generally comes from minerals like calcium, lime, and salt that are more prevalent in water than airborn water vapor. There should still be more of the white residue hidden in other areas of tractor if it's been sumberged in water. There also appears to have been a significant amount of water laying in the bottom of the housing for a while.

About 10 years ago I had the unpleasant experience of having to apologize to a customer in a similar situation. The initial evidence and experience told me he was lying about the cause of his problems, but when I got deeper into the job it turned out to be legitimate equipment failure. I had already basically told the guy that I thought he was lying to me. It was a very bad feeling to lose a customer because I leapt to a premature conclusion and basically called him a liar. I stayed late and got him back up and running before I left for the day, but I never saw him again, and rightfully so.

You are defintely on the right track in trying to give him the benefit of the doubt before shooting him down. I will hopefully never make that same mistake again.

 

[Argosy]

I keep staring at these pics and I don't see what everybody else sees... IMHO, the owner has a very good warranty case..

I'm with you. I see a flywheel and clutch, throw out bearing cross shaft in pretty rough shape. I don't see a plug in the bell housing where it could have been checked, or drained. If there isn't a plug the only way water could get out would be between the mating surface of the bell housing and engine adapter. That should be rusted where the water leaked out and it isn't, it looks like RTV sealant on it which would be real slow to drain, if ever.

The input shafts on the trans, the bell housing itself and the adapter on the engine, the throwout bearing aren't rusted nearly as bad as the flywheel, or worse than would be expected for bare metal.

How hard did it come apart? I don't see any pry marks on the mating surfaces of the bell housing and adapter, if it was underwater I would think it would be almost impossible to get apart. What do the starter shaft and gear look like? Can you get a light to where you can see the flywheel to crank bolts?

It looks to me like the clutch and flywheel were in bad shape before assembly. I think someone in assembly took a chance that most would make it through the warranty period and warranty costs would be less than scrapping them so they were used.

From the pictures there's too much difference between the clutch components, the bell housing and adapter, for me to believe the bell housing was full of water.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I'm with you. I see a flywheel and clutch, throw out bearing cross shaft in pretty rough shape. I don't see a plug in the bell housing where it could have been checked, or drained. If there isn't a plug the only way water could get out would be between the mating surface of the bell housing and engine adapter. That should be rusted where the water leaked out and it isn't, it looks like RTV sealant on it which would be real slow to drain, if ever.

The input shafts on the trans, the bell housing itself and the adapter on the engine, the throwout bearing aren't rusted nearly as bad as the flywheel, or worse than would be expected for bare metal.

How hard did it come apart? I don't see any pry marks on the mating surfaces of the bell housing and adapter, if it was underwater I would think it would be almost impossible to get apart. What do the starter shaft and gear look like? Can you get a light to where you can see the flywheel to crank bolts?

It looks to me like the clutch and flywheel were in bad shape before assembly. I think someone in assembly took a chance that most would make it through the warranty period and warranty costs would be less than scrapping them so they were used.

From the pictures there's too much difference between the clutch components, the bell housing and adapter, for me to believe the bell housing was full of water.

Different metals rust at different rates.
bill

 

[brain55]

He would have to be a pretty darn good customer or potential customer if I was going to cover that. I agree warranties are for manufacturer defects or faulty workmanship. Every warranty I have ever read is pretty clear about things like brakes and clutches not being covered. In the same breath I would be curious whether the engine to clutch housing gasket or starter gasket was intact or if the steering box to clutch housing was sealed. If I was in doubt of any of these then I might be able to justify the warranty, unless they were tampered with by the customer. If this guy is trying to get one over on you and threatening to bad mouth you, my guess is that most people he will bad mouth you to, know this guy, and will take what he complains about with a grain of salt. Boy, I sure went back and forth on that. I guess it comes down to a gut feeling call by you. Personally, from the pictures I'm calling it a duck. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't fix it either.

I'm sure that was of no help what so ever.

Brian

 

[KWentling]

Don't most dry clutch tractors have a drain hole in the bottom to drain condensation? I've seen them with cotter pins (jiggle pins) in them to keep dirt from plugging them up. Design flaw? Seems like an awful lot of rust for just condensation, but if there is no way for it to get out, it may be possible. Any chance you could get a look at his pond? Sure looks and sounds suspicious, but unless you can find some definitive evidence that it has been submerged, I would think you have to take his word for it. Maybe check electrical connections, wire loom etc. for water and silt.

Kim

 

[crazyal]

Don't most dry clutch tractors have a drain hole in the bottom to drain condensation? I've seen them with cotter pins (jiggle pins) in them to keep dirt from plugging them up. Design flaw? Seems like an awful lot of rust for just condensation, but if there is no way for it to get out, it may be possible. Any chance you could get a look at his pond? Sure looks and sounds suspicious, but unless you can find some definitive evidence that it has been submerged, I would think you have to take his word for it. Maybe check electrical connections, wire loom etc. for water and silt.

Kim

If it was a design flaw then wouldn't every tractor, or a number of them also be having clutch issues at 120hrs? As i said before I don't think this was sitting in water but just driven through or left for a short time. As to why some things having more rust than others, I would expect things that are hot or turning to dry out very quickly where things the housings that'll cool off quicker will collect the water.

So what is the problem with the tractor? The rust on the cast parts shouldn't be an issue. If I had to guess I would say the pilot bearing wasn't sliding smoothly. Was it just the grease that turned into paste? Was the linkage that's moving hard? Is the pressure plate not working?

Unless you see tracks at the guys house/ farm heading into and out of a pond or a stream I think it'll be hard to find out exactly what happened. If the drain(s) look like they are function as they should, not plugged by something like RTV from when the tractor was built and other tractors you've split don't show this kind of problem then I think he's out of luck.

 

[mjncad]

Lots of water has been in there, and it sounds like the customer is a lying sack-o-crap.

 

[jake98]

Looks like a no-drainage problem to me, that much rust didn't happen in a couple weeks. But I don't know..
Give him his service options and move on. Even if he's not your favorite customer he may buy another one from you down the road.

 

[brokenot]

I keep staring at these pics and I don't see what everybody else sees... IMHO, the owner has a very good warranty case..

The only way he has a warranty case, is if it's still under warranty, and the owner has held up his end of the warranty agreement with repairs and maintenance. The biggest misconception about warranties is that they're automatic and complete on their own. They're not. If an owner wants a company to live up to their end of the warranty bargain, they need to live up to their end as well. Warranty agreements are very specific about what's covered, and what the owner's obligations are...and those obligations include everything from do's and dont's for machine use to maintenance and storage practices, etc. I'd say, (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here), roughly 10% of the people I've dealt with over the years are aware of anything more than the standard, "One year" or "two year" limits on warranty coverage. I see equipment in the shop every day that's 3, 4, 5, 6 years old, and the warranty booklet is still sealed in the factory plastic. Yet the owner or user is certain about what their coverage is. When a machine is in for a valid warranty issue, we get asked all the time for a loaner machine, or to cover things like transportation costs or down time. It's really obvious at that point how much they understand about their coverage. Even if this machine is still under warranty....this raises a big red flag for me:

The tractor is 2 and half years old and the customer says he uses it everyday.It has 120 hrs on it

Anyone else have a piece of equipment that's 2 1/2 years old and gets used every day....that has 120 hours on it?

It *almost* sounds as if the hour meter's capacity to track machine usage has been, ummm....altered in case some "warranty consideration" was needed down the road at some point. Either that, or the total hour reading is being kept "artificially" low to aid in resale value later on.

Hate to say it, but I've seen it happen waaaaay more than once. I like to give the benefit of the doubt myself, but folks can make it tough sometimes...

Even if he's not your favorite customer he may buy another one from you down the road.

That's a tough call as well. Anyone that has ever dealt with warranty evaluations and such can tell you that granting coverage for something that shouldn't be covered is seldom a "one-and-done" kind of deal. They'll expect it the next time something comes up too.

 

[jake98]

... granting coverage for something that shouldn't be covered ...

I didn't mean to imply that..