On the topic of debt

   / On the topic of debt #41  
Normally it is not a good idea to put appreciating assets into a corp, because of the double taxation problem down the line. Plus you lose the 20% capital gains rate when you sell. Yes, the deductions for the land reduce the amount of salary you have to pay yourself to zero out the corporate tax, but the loss of the capital gain rate benefit, and the potential double tax in the future can be much worse.

If you take an appreciated asset out of a corp, the corp has to report it as though it had been sold, and pay as much as 34% on the gain (or even 35%). And, depending on whether or not the distribution is a dividend (in which case you report the FMV as ordinary income), or a liquidation (in which case you pay capital gains rates), you have a second tax to pay at the shareholder level.

And, yes, if the land is used in your trade or business, the expenses are deductible whether you incorporate or not.

Assuming you don't want to get into too many details on here, please send me a private message with more facts, especially how the ESOP was set up. We eliminated ESOPs from our practice 10 or 12 years ago, as we ran into much difficulty; however, if there is something I'm not aware of, I'd sure like to become aware of it.
 
   / On the topic of debt #42  
I don't know the ins and outs of it I just know how it works for us. Our accountant has things in our name and the corp. Some things are rented back to the corp. etc. I think an esop is the greatest thing since sliced butter. I don't know how you could save more taxes than doing it this way.

Our accountant was a director at the IRS. He then quit and opened a practice for big business. He does alot of docs though and that is how I got in with him. He accepts no new clients. Basically someone has to die or quit before he will take a new client.
 
   / On the topic of debt #43  
Not knowing all the facts, I should really not comment too much on your situation, Cowboydoc. Its probably more complicated that even you know, but I'm sure you're in good hands.

Really the point I'm making is that you don't purchase real estate for tax savings, because real estate investments don't save taxes, as you can't deduct more than you spend, and many times not even that much. Simply forming a corporation and either putting land in there or having the corp purchase the land won't save taxes either, and will probably cost MORE in taxes when you sell the land.

We sort of got sidetracked here. First time that ever happened /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.
 
   / On the topic of debt #44  
Alan,
Yes you are completely right that it is way more complicated than I can say.

I know you are the expert but I know that buying land and such has worked so well for us to relieve tax burdens. I know many people that buy ranches or farms for tax breaks. Why do so many people do it if it doesn't pay? I know with us all of the land payments, equipment, labor, etc. comes off of my bottom line for what I make in my practice. For example if I make $50k worth of land purchases that is money I don't have to pay taxes on at the end of the year. I realize if I went to sell the land that I would have consequences but the land I buy I'm not planning on selling anytime soon. Plus the accountant said as long as we buy more ground of equal or greater value that there wouldn't be tax conseqences on it.
 
   / On the topic of debt #45  
Cowboydoc:
Land/property is probably the best investment a person can make. It helps the tax situation but it is also a tangible item that can be seen and felt. Very much unlike investing in stocks/shares.
Egon
 
   / On the topic of debt #46  
Regarding Cowbydoc's land deduction, my guess is that somehow the land purchased by your corporation is being contributed to the ESOP, and that is what is being deducted versus the actual land purchase.

I say that because there's no way in the world you can deduct in year one for tax purposes the cost of a capital asset (ignoring §179 and ignoring depletion like strip mining, etc.) that I am aware of.

In general, if there's a tax benefit, there's a tax cost somewhere else. If you're deducting the land cost in full as either an outright deduction or a pension plan contribution, then the tax cost will be incurred when the land is sold (because it would have zero basis) or pension benefits are paid.

I recall you discussing this awhile ago on some other thread, and I wondered about it at that time (deducting land costs and ESOPS). I'm not an expert on retirement plans, though.

I'm just curious if you (your corp) ever sold land that was previously written off and how did you compute the taxable gain?

I'm not trying to knock what you're doing or anything like that, I really am curious as to how it works. It raises the question in my mind of why isn't everyone doing it?
 
   / On the topic of debt #47  
With regards to selling yes I did just sell some ground and we had to buy like ground within a certain period. I did and there were no tax consequences. The state just called me in fact with a rash of questions on the sale and said ok everything is in order. I don't know how all of this works.

With regard to why doesn't everyone do it I think it comes down to cost. It costs alot up front to start one up and then there are significant costs every year to stay in compliance with the govt.

Yes you are also right that if I ever keep any of this money or if I ever sell land and keep the proceeds there would be huge tax consequences. However I don't plan to do that. The only thing I would do if I sold land was to buy land somewhere else.
 
   / On the topic of debt #48  
I'll try to address some of the points brought up by various TBNers:

I'm all for real estate investments because of the economic benefits. Such investments don't give you any special tax benefits, other than capital gains rates in the future, or medium 25% rates on gain cause by depreciation. On an ongoing basis, deductions seldom vary much from cash outlay. That is NOT a tax shelter. Paying out $1,000 to save $300 in taxes is not smart, unless the deal is economically feasible otherwise.

If we are talking about raw land, not used in a trade or business (such as a farm), then even the cash expenses get limited. Interest on such raw land is deductible only to the extent you have investment income. Taxes are deductible if you itemize and if you do not have an alternative minimum tax problem. Other related expenses, such as mowing, insurance, etc. are deductible as miscellaneous itemized deductions, reduced by 2% of your total income, and this is only assuming you do not have an alternative minimum tax problem.

There is an election available, which I use frequently, whereby taxes and carrying costs related to unimproved, unproductive real estate can be capitalized (added to the cost basis of the land, thereby reducing future gain). I take advantage of this election when the deductions would otherwise be wasted due to the limitations and the AMT. As for the interest, any disallowed amount carries forward indefinitely until you have sufficient investment income to deduct it.

Suppose you are going to develop the land (subdivide), and you take the necessary steps to replat it, spend some legal fees etc. This makes it a trade or business. However, once you become a developer, you lose the benefit of the capital gains rates. All gains for future sales are taxed at ordinary rates. In these situations I have had clients who sat on land for years and had lots of appreciation in it, then decided to develop it. Had they just developed it and sold the lots, ALL of the gains would have been ordinary. We had them form a corporation and sell the land to the corp on an installment basis. The corp was a developer, but the shareholder received capital gains treatment for the sale of the land to the wholly owned corp. The corp pays has profits only to the extent the sales proceeds exceed the price it paid the shareholder for the land, and the development costs. Most of the profits were paid out as reasonable salary to avoid double taxation.

If you farm the land, you get the best of both worlds. You deduct the costs associated with it as farm expenses, but if you sell it after a year at gain, you can take advantage of the capital gains rates. As long as you can show that the land is used in the farm, this is the way to go. But you can't run one cow on 100 acres and call it a farm.

If you rent the land out, it gets more complicated, but in all cases you can deduct the expenses to the extent of rent income, and excess expenses are usually an itemized deduction as though the land is investment property. Passive activity loss limitations can come into play.

If you sell property, simplly replacing it with another does not generally defer the reportable gain. However there is a provision under section 1031, whereby if the title company keeps the proceeds from the sale and you identify and close on replacement property within a specified period of time, you can defer the gain from the first to the second. This is a great deal, but you must not see the cash, and you must end up with at least as much equity in the replacement property as you had in the one you gave up.

You can't take depreciaion on land. But if you purchase improved real estate and rent it out, you can take depreciation on the improvements. For the most part, you are limited to 27.5 years for residential and 39 years for commercial - all straight line. You can't take the section 179 deduction on real estate, but if you purchase equipment like a tractor connected to the rental of real estate (but not residential), and the rentals are considered a trade or business, then you can take advantage of section 179. An example of a rental that would NOT be considered a trade or business is the rental of land to a farmer, or a triple net lease, where you have virtually no expenses and don't have to do anything. If you have a shopping center and purchase a tractor, then you can utilize section 179.

The $25K available loss I was referring to is available for real estate rentals that you actively manage. This rule was put in the law mostly for taxpayers who own a rent house or two. This benefit phases out by 50% once your total income (adjusted gross income) reaches $100K, and is no longer available at all at total income over $150K.

If I was the world authority on making investments - real estate or otherwise, I would be rich, which I'm not. So take these points for what they are worth.
 
   / On the topic of debt #49  
If you farm the land, you get the best of both worlds. You deduct the costs associated with it as farm expenses, but if you sell it after a year at gain, you can take advantage of the capital gains rates. As long as you can show that the land is used in the farm, this is the way to go. But you can't run one cow on 100 acres and call it a farm.

This is exactly what I do with the land I buy Alan. I do operate all the ground as a business. Some I rent out, some I farm myself, and the ranches that I have in Idaho and Oregon my Uncle and my brothers run for me as part of their operations.

It looks like we are on the same page then. That was exactly what I did with the last property that I bought. I purchased more ag. land. We didn't have to follow the equity rule though as the new property that I purchased was more money than the property I sold but I did put all of the money from the sale of land A into buying land B. That's actually the first I'd heard of having to do that. One thing with these corp. and esops is you sure do have to trust your accountant. I never could understand how people could get ripped off for so much money by an accountant but I do now. He brings down literally binders full of information that we have to keep. I try to read through alot of it but there is so much that I gave up.
 
   / On the topic of debt #50  
Am I the only one that's getting a headache here?

I'm pretty sure you guys are speaking English but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Maybe that's why I still need to borrow money when I want a new car or tractor or whatever.

OK, Alan, you've got an excuse since this sort of thing is what you do, but where/how does everyone else learn this stuff?
 

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