Open runoff drainage ditch- Suggestions?

[DiskDoctr]

The field behind our house is on a slope and has at least one spring in it. Where the field meets the edge of the back yard makes a natural swell and usually stays a bit wet, especially near the lower end where it tries to spread out into almost swamp-like consistency.

We've dug a shallow ditch in this swell and put down landscape fabric, then covered it with 3B gravel (about 2"x3" pieces) Out of about 180 ft, we've only done about 30 ft, so there is time to change if needed.

I don't know whether I should cover the gravel with more fabric, then dirt, or finish it off with just the gravel in a neat line, or what...

The goal is to allow drainage down the ditch like a channel (without as much water, of course), and also act as a barrier to the water from the field, preventing the "wetlands" look.

We would also like to raise the level of the ground on each side of the ditch to have a more flattened transition instead of looking like a sunken ditch.

Has anyone done something similar with results they want to share? Have you seen a setup that you thought was really sharp looking?

I'm looking for some ideas and advice.

Thanks!

-JC

 

[dltimmons]

JC,

I've used 4" perforated drain line on a lot of foundations, to prevent water collecting around the base of a building.
You can buy it in coils of various lengths. If you dig a trench, then lay in several inches of 3/4 to 1 1/2" gravel, lay the drain line in, and cover it with the same gravel, you can create a buried french drain, which will carry the water away from the area you want to dry out.
If you line the trench with landscape fabric, then cover the drain line with the same fabric before covering it with gravel, it will act as a silt filter to help long term from having the pipe fill up with fine particles.
This way you don't have an open ditch to deal with, and can even cover the top 3-4" with top soil and seed in grass if you want to. It works a lot better than an open ditch, no exposed standing water, no ditch to cross with your equipment, etc.
If you get a lot of surface water like runoff, this wont work as well as an open ditch. But it sounds like you have sub-surface water leaching down from the field above, and this method will definately work for that. You'll need to determine the average depth of the sub-suface water migration, and set your drain line depth accordingly.
Just an idea I've used, hope it helps.

DT

 

[dmartin88]

We had a problem with runoff when we moved in to our house, ended up making about a 6" deep channel down the side of the house, filled with decorative stone (about 1-2" size). It doesn't look bad and has served the purpose well, we debated as you are whether to try and hide it or to just use it as a "dry creek bed" (most of the time) and try to work it in to the landscape. Here's a link to a picture I had posted in response to another post about ponds, the gravel ditch is in the forefront of the picture.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/448706-pond1.jpg

Good luck.

 

[Darren]

If you're talking about a french drain, you need to wrap the gravel in fabric also. Otherwise over time, soil infiltrates and fills the spaces around the gravel. Our yard around the house was constantly wet (unless there was a drought) because the house is in a spit of land that pickups water from two sides.

After building a french drain along the two sides, the problem has never resurfaced. I laid the fabric in first with the ends extending out of the trench. The pipe was laid in, perfs down. Then the pea gravel was used to cover the pipe and fill the trench to about 6 or 12" of the surface. Then the fabric was folded over the top of the gravel. On top of that I filled to within 2 or 3" of the top with free draining sand then used native soil on top of that.

I can dump a five gal. bucket of water on top of that drain and the water looks like it's getting sucked down by a vacuum.

 

[Phred]

good advice from the other guys.

I would just add that you can buy the 4" perf pipe already socked. Basically its the standard perf pipe pre-wrapped in a landscape like cloth, just like you would put a sock on your foot and leg.
Boy does this speed up the work, and the cost is not much higher.
Advanced drainage systems is the company I think, but I bought some from Home depot and a local plumbing supply places carries it.

Fred

 

[Henro]

Here is my experience...

You need to find the place where the spring is coming out of the ground. Once you do that, then you run a pipe from that point to where you want to dump the water.

What happens is that the spring comes out of the ground then makes everything downhill from it wet and soggy. If you can find the source, and then pipe it to where you want it to go, the rest of the area will dry up.

A muddy soggy place will become hard because the water will not be there anymore to keep it soggy.

If you just have one place where the spring is coming up, you can use solid pipe to carry it to where you want to dump it. That actually is probably better than perferated pipe, when you think about it.

Taking spring water from a point to another point is not the same as a french drain around a foundation for example.

Different animal. Voice of experience speaking here. I have several springs on my property...not where I wanted them, of course... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

In the end, don't worry. You can do it!

 

[Darren]

I could be wrong but it appears from the description that the field slopes down toward the backyard and forms a natural swale where they meet. A pipe from the spring only won't pickup the surface water flowing down the slope.

 

[Henro]

<font color="blue"> A pipe from the spring only won't pickup the surface water flowing down the slope.
</font>

I know we are just speculating, since what we think is there may be different from what is actually there... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It is amazing how big of a soggy spot a little spring can produce. If one can find the point where the spring comes up, and channel it away with pipe, then there ends up being no water to run on the surface of the ground to be absorbed and make mush...

Unfortunately, it can be pretty hard sometimes finding the point where the spring is coming up. LOTs of digging when your not talented (no need to ask how I know... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif). Glad I have a backhoe... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[DiskDoctr]

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far.

The field has multiple sources of water, including springs, runoff and general drainage.

I am looking to create a water barrier and drainage between the field and backyard.

I guess I should be more specific...

Should I use a pipe in the ditch, or will 3b gravel be enough? I've used lots of pipe other places and it's good for carrying away a specific source of water, but this area appears to have so many places, I was thinking a permanent drainage "channel" made from gravel would be best (?)

I've never used one of these, but basically it's just a gravel filled ditch, right?

The socked pipe is an interesting product. I've never seen one of these. Any pipe would have to be pretty strong, as this is near the surface and we regularly cross this area with large equipment (about 17k lbs).

I was thinking about the cost of a schedule 80 pipe about 200' long, plus the need to extend the pipe to a good drain area. In my experience, gravel drains gently, a pipe can get a heavy flow. The gravel "channel" will take the water to below the surface and any excess that doesn't drain down will flow downhill in the channel and drain gently into the ground. Or at least, so says my plan /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Water being on the surface creating wet areas is the main problem. I don't want to drain the springs, as it keeps the field growing nicely, especially during the dry end of summer months. It's the excess between rains and especially during.

I figured the landscape fabric would be needed to keep the gravel/channel "open" and not fill up with soil at the first heavy rain.

Can I/should I get away without pipe in this situation, and has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with such a contraption, or am I just full of beans and it will never work? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Also, I'm interested on opinions on how a gravel lined ditch looks on property and if it works better than soil covered fabric over the ditch. Do you like it, hate it, and what are the pros and cons.

I know this is a lot, but from what I've seen elsewhere on this board, this is definitely the right group to ask...

Thanks!

-JC

 

[herdfan]

I just put in a french drain along a hillside to collect spring water and collect runoff from the hill.
I dug a trench about 3 feet deep, laid down some geotech fabric, and put a 4" perforated pipe into a bed of 1 1/2" to 2" gravel and wrapped the fabric over the whole thing. It took about 12 tons of gravel for 70 feet of drain, but this thing was pouring out the water with the recent storms we've been having!
This thing will handle more water than a sock-wrapped pipe, I'd bet.

 

[Henro]

Seems like I have a little bit of everything on my property... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

There was one area that was always real wet, not that large, maybe 50x80 feet but close to the house where I wanted a yard rather than a soggy spot. The property slopes gently downwards.

I could not find where the spring was coming up, digging by hand back then...so I ended up having a guy with a backhoe come in and dig a long trench about 2 feet deep, on the low side of the area, heading down hill, and then side trenches from it across the area, in a way that flow in the bottom of the trenchs would enter the first long trench, and come out at the bottom end, which I let flow into my pond for a while, until a muskrat or something got in there and the flow went somewhere else, maybe into my septic system (for lack of a better term for what is really there) for all I know...

My soil is clay. I dumped river gravel in the bottom of the trenches ( I think one of them actually crossed the spring that was putting the water on the ground, been a while) and backfilled over it, and it has been nice and dry ever since and the area is normal yard now. So some variation of this would likely work for you.

As far as rock lined ditches go, after the sewers went in behind my pond they "restored" my ditch, which was a simple clay eroded channel, by lining it with limestone rocks varying from 6 to 10" or so in diameter/lenght. I guess it did/does not look too bad, but it is not natural looking either.

But in any case, the stone is already disappearing...in the bottom is is covered with silt/sand carried by the rain water...and the sides are becoming somewhat green due to weeds growing...so if you are wanting to see those rocks in the future, you will have to pile them pretty deep, so there is nothing for plants to sink roots in, or you will have to do something to kill off whatever does take hold, from what I can see...

 

[DiskDoctr]

Herdfan,

How much is geotech fabric, and how does it hold up? I've been using landscape fabric (25year) and it is pretty pricey.

I haven't seen geotech.

I am new to using "fabric" of any kind. We always just dug, gravel, fill. Now that I am back on the family farm, we are redoing ditches, drains, etc.

Sort of like Henro said about the ditches filling up with silt. I guess you learn as you go /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Alternate (read: cheaper /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) materials that still hold up are very welcome. The fabric I have also is only 4' w x 100' long. Courtesy of Lowes.

Henro- Thanks for confirming my suspicions about open ditches. Covering one with fabric, then soil worries me that the fabric will eventually pull up from mowing, spinning, etc.

Too much soil may slow the drainage, but I guess it will certainly drain below the surface, so maybe it will be okay. It's not like a river or stream on the surface, just too much for the ground to absorb.

Thanks to all for the good info so far. Now if only Herdfan can hook me up with fabric about $.05/ft /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-JC

 

[herdfan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Thanks to all for the good info so far. Now if only Herdfan can hook me up with fabric about $.05/ft )</font>

That fabric is pretty expensive.
I paid 50 cents per sq yard.
I bought 2 rolls of 12.5' wide X 432' long for $600.
I mainly wanted it for my driveway to save on gravel expenses and trouble with asphalt in the future, but it also works well for the french drains.
You may want to check with some paving contractors - they may have some left over from a job that they will sell at a reduced rate.

Eric

 

[dummy]

<font color="blue">We would also like to raise the level of the ground on each side of the ditch to have a more flattened transition instead of looking like a sunken ditch.
</font> You could also create a wider, shallower swale that would give the impression of being "level". Instead of a 12-18" wide trench, a 3-5 ft. wide swale might work just as well and is easier on the eyes and lawnmower.

 

[herdfan]

Another thought -

How about just wrap the gravel in the fabric and lay some rip-rap on top of that? You would save on the perf pipe (although that's not too expensive), still have a nice drainage solution and the rip-rap would hold everything together and look good.

(Do you have a picture of the area?)